Why using Kubrick on 1.3 is a mistake

For the less technically minded I need to point out that none of my templates suffer from the alleged deficiencies of floats of IE bugginess and clearing issues. And in the case of Gemini and Trident the source ordering of the document is the same as the default (content first). Vesuvius poses a different challenge. This type of bald generalised assertion is not helping. There are plenty of difficulties with position absolute as well. All of which have been aired in the disatisfaction of users struggling with style sheets which do not fit the index php. One of the requirements for designing web pages is to appreciate the limit or tolerance of that particular layout, and to understand the nature and effect of the compromises necessary to get any site running half decently. The W3C model itself is fractured. Our task is to make the right choices from the tools available.
That is a difficult call in many cases.

I’m not sure if I should be horrified or amused at this thread.
1) Just because a Kuberic-inspired (I hesitate to called it a variant, or based) template is shipped doesn’t mean you have to use it. In addition see #4 below.
2) I’m glad now I think I understand the problems with Gemini and Trident…. it seems to be a personal thing. Which is fine, jsut as my issues for the default WP template was a personal thing. As a side note, I’m able to use Trident w/o problems, without any images, so I fail to see the problem. I had issues with the default wanting to slam the footer right through my menu, Trident “fixed” that for me. To each their own, doesn’t make it any more or less right. It’s just the same as using tables for layout, for some it works, and it’s what they know, great more powere to them. Doesn’t make it any less right, just makes it so that they know what they are doing. Each person has the right to their own opinion, no matter how much others may think they are wrong.
3) I think that everyone who has participated in this thread, myself included, should recieve four lashings for the knee jerk reactions taking place. Then a pentance of ignoring the forums for four hours to allow everyone to cool down.
4) I said it before, I’ll say it again, it sounds like a lot of this is based on fear, innuendo, rumor, myth, suppositions, presumtions, a little salt, and some lemon juice. How many times does it need to be repeated:

This thread is about using elements from Kubrick in the next WordPress version. No one knows what elements yet. None of the devs know what it’ll be like yet. Matt doesn’t know exactly. I don’t know. And you don’t know.

5)

I’m sorry that I posted what I posted in the first place. Not because it was wrong of me, but because I had forgotten the incredible ability some people have of jumping to conclusions without veryfying with the sources.

Better we air our dirty laundry out now, than after the fact.

Instead of bickering over this or that, why not be constructive and make points for what you would like to see changed, if anything.

Here’s what I think would be nice to see done. More than one template:

• One that shows all the bells and whistles of WP – Not quite WuhWuh, but close, something that uses every template tag known in WP. Along with comments in the code, 8 by 10 color glossies, with circles and arrows, and a paragraph on the back ‘splaining what each one was. This one should be totaly unstylized and in the raw. Might help newbies to understand what comes back from WP.
• Same thing as above, but with a little styling, to show some options.
• A full blown stylized template.

Idealy, there could be one “index.php” file, with different CSS files. The index file could then contain the code to include each of these file types, with two of them commented out. It’s just a thought. What *I* would like to see in the default template is examples of all the calls I can do with WP. As part of the comments, link back to the appropriate entry in the Wiki. This would make it easier for others to find out more about the function, as well as promoting the Wiki too.
I think it’s a real shame this thread got out of hand so far so fast.
Matt, I think it’s time that maybe this thread should be locked as it doesn’t seem to be serving any real purpose.
TG

Michael: Why don’t you stop saying that there’s something wrong with the “aesthetics” of Gemini and say exactly what is wrong. Also, why won’t “you want” Gemiini to represent WP? It is based on the current default template of WP, which represents it.
Also, I do think that Podz is about to suffer a nervous breakdown if Kurick generates at least half the no. of questions as the current default. My guess is that it can generate twice.

If anyone wants to release a highly customized, plugin heavy, graphically interfaced version of WordPress what they need to do is fork the distro. — Root

You seem to be referring to Kubrick as available from Michael’s site, which I’ve said over and over and over again isn’t whatwill be included.

Putting aside the visuals it is a completely different animal. — Root

It’s a design and the visuals are the best part. Kubrick could be done using “Gemini”(better known as Cederholm) CSS. It doesn’t matter.

We are talking about Kubrick in the WordPress distribiution rather than Gemini because Root runs around here making enemies and Michael does not. — Redneck

Gemini is just a layout. A new layout is needed yes, but a new design is also needed. Michael’s work is a real design. The CSS layout of Gemini is not unique, not original by Root, and available many other places, as I linked earlier. “Gemini” and the Kubrick design are not mutually exclusive.

Matt not liking Root’s design because you don’t like him, is just plain stupid. — Goodsnake

I’m going to do my best to ignore your flames. I don’t have anything against the CSS used in Root’s layouts. (They’re not designs.) Similar methods may be used in the next version of WP. Or they may not. It doesn’t matter. If Root was around before the last WordPress release he could have filed bugs on the current layout. Unfortunately at that time Root wasn’t around, though there was someone with the same IP address anonymously flaming these same forums on the same matters.

Yes, it is ugly, but so is the default. He wasn’t trying to make it pretty, he was trying to make the structure right, it is up to the owner to make it pretty. — Goodsnake

While I wished I could share the same amazement at taking a CSS layout developed by someone else, sticking WP code in it, and calling it “Gemini,” I don’t. Is a better one needed for WP? Sure. That’s one of the main reasons the release has been delayed. Could I take “Gemini” and ship 1.3? No, because it’s butt ugly and has terrible use of whitespace.

My point from the beginning is that Kubrick is an unpleasant install and it is hard to change. — Goodsnake

These are both issues I’ve already addressed in this thread. I’ll repeat myself: installation of the Kubrick from Michael’s site is not an issue. It will install just like every previous version of WordPress has. It’s no harder to change than Gemini, except the colors (if they decide to keep the images) and we can create an online tool to make that easier.
Now those of you who claim to care about WordPress but continue to flame in this thread think about what has actually come of this discussion: Nothing in WordPress has changed, because there wasn’t anything to change yet. A bunch of people (including several of the people that write the code you all use) are disgusted, and now key support people are taking a break from the madness as well.
Personally? I’m not going to read this thread any more. People aren’t reading before they post and I don’t want to become any more hurt or disillusioned than I already am. If you want to keep fighting feel free, but keep in mind what someone new to WordPress would think of this thread. If you have serious thoughts you want to share on this issue my email is public, and discussion of the issues is welcome from anyone.

It’s not as if this hasn’t been said before, but this is a support forum.
Is it absolutely necessary that decisions about the path a software project is taking involves protracted “mine is longer and stiffer than yours” debates? You’d have thought people had grown out of the age where life centers around the locker room.

Root, goodsnake:
If you’re *that* determined to spew hate stuff about Matt and his competence, just fork WordPress and be done with it.
Fork it for the fucking petty pretext of seeing it ship with whatever you deem good CSS.
And since you love that phrase, let me just tell you: you are entitled to it, since it’s free software.
And for the love of Tim, quit the “I’m so much better than y’all since I know CSS positionning.” — All our devs do, too. You might aswell pride yourself that you can recognise an even number from an uneven one: CSS positionning is just that easy.

One of the saddest aspects of this sorry saga has been the evident readiness of people to tarnish others by attributing to them things which either they didn’t say or did’nt do. Once they have redfined the argument they blaze away. Matt is right. Gemini et al are just a piece of html. Convenient and easy. Maybe better than the default. They are not a solution and they are certainly not designs.
It is easy to mock the branding. But tens of thousands of people now understand what type of layout comes under those names in each case. Maybe WordPress could follow suit with a range of alternative interfaces.

Ok, that’s it. I’ve had it. I have never seen such a display of childish behaviour. What a bunch of overreacting babies. Root, I think you’re just jealous your templates weren’t chosen. I like the way you have taken them offline, like you’re taking all your toys and stomping home, all pouty.
None of you complainers give Matt one ounce of faith or credit. Instead, you just piss all over the hard work of Matt and the other developers. The amount of time given freely by those folks alone should demand your respect.
Root, you and your cohorts have left a really bad taste in my mouth for WordPress, unfortunately.
I’m outta here, off to check out Textpattern.

Well, after reading this thread I’ve decided to blow the dust off my PHP & MySQL Web Development book and write my own blogging software. Wish me luck! ??
(Of course, my site will continue to run WP until I get my own stuff working!)

Michael,
Stylistically, Kubrick is nice; that is my non-professional, personal opinion. It is something that I find inspiring. I was very surprised at what the archive contained, because I’m so conditioned to the index.php/wp-layout.css combo. I gained a lot of perspective about my site in general from the Kubrick mod. “Mod” for those who may not be aware, is a gamers’ term where the basic engine of the software is kept, but many changes are made to enhance the gaming experience.
Kubrick is not just a pretty photoshop image. It’s a 404 page, search page, archive page and more. I found myself poking around in the PHP files, which is not my technical fort??. This mod pointed out to me what kinds of things might be possible because WP is structured so soundly, and this structure continues to be improved upon daily.
As for the photoshop issue, it didn’t even phase on me. I don’t have Photoshop software, but I do know of alternatives that I can use. Immediately I was thinking of ways to adapt and make this my own, just the same as the way I wanted to adapt and make the default layout my own. I recently challenged a knowledgeable Fireworks software user to come up with a FW version of the Kubrick mod. It will be interesting to see what he comes up with.
My point in all of this, is that Kubrick is about possibilities; it’s about improvements in style, function, and accessibility. Nobody has claimed it to be the Rosetta Stone of WP design and layout. It does, however, open my mind and imagination to new and better things in store for a great piece of software.
Thank you, Michael, for creating Kubrick; it is truly inspirational to me.
WordPress: “The future’s so bright, I gotta wear shades…”

OT: My three simple layout images were created in Fireworks–header, background, and footer.
Update: four images…..forgot the background for the feedback class.

will this be a heavy download ??

BTW, I recently committed some code to CVS which allows one to easily load different templates for different query types, if so desired. This is all done withot requiring custom rewrite rules. Installing Kubrick in 1.3 should be a cinch. So too with any other set of templates. See my notice on the hackers list.

PT: Michael, are there any intellectual property issues to be concerned about with your use of Stanley Kubrick’s image, name, and use of 2001 A Space Odyssey image on your site and in the Kubrick install readme file? I would not like to be an unwitting party to intellectual property theft.
And anyway the spooky mental image I get of HAL (Kubrick Template?) taking over the Ship (WordPress?) and killing everyone except Dave (existing WP Users?)… And then Matt and Michael in this thread and elsewhere attempting to comfort us by saying things like:

Look, Dave, I can see you’re really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.

… *gasp*! To be safe, maybe we should just start referring to WP 1.3 as BonsaiPress or something!

Thanks Matt. Hopefully this thread is fast approaching its frazzled end…
for it’s “but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
My thanks to the other Bill, some things just can’t be improved upon ??