Why using Kubrick on 1.3 is a mistake

Root: But have you bothered asking Matt what changes that are going to be made?

podz: What I think would benefit WP in general, is if you instead of putting your heels into stopping the progress on a new default template, is make a top 10 list of the most problematic questions that you see again and again.
You’re without a doubt the most qualified person to deal with such a thing!

Just woke up and wanted to say thanks to Matt for the reply (and sorry for being a nag about it. That wasn’t the intent) and the link from 2fargon. Learned much from it. That’s all from me. I’m just going to sit back and see where this goes, as you guys have given me more than enough info to keep busy. Thanks again. ??

“podz: What I think would benefit WP in general, is if you instead of putting your heels into stopping the progress on a new default template”
Michael, please point out precisely where I have done this.
PRECISELY

Michael and Podz, another thing I think Podz could contribute, which might ease Podz’ future burden, is to use his considerable experience with supporting the current styles to help you structure and comment Kubrick, so it’s easier for people to figure out and for him to support.
Ultimately that might result in fewer help requests, and that way this potential change might benefit Podz rather than burden him.

Podz: … My God. Can we move it along here?

Brian: That’s exactly what I was getting at.

You were implying by your earlier posts that making changes to the current default style would be bad, because noone was thinking of the increased support load on you valiant forum helpers.
But as I said, here’s your chance to have an influence on the development of the templates so they will decrease your workload.
Is that about right, Michael?

Yes, that’s about right Brian, thank you.

My last comment was for Podz, as an answer to his precise demand to Michael Heilemann.

I hope that clears up my earlier comment.

Yes, it does, thank you. You can’t identify any significant problems withe the Gemini and Trident templates (beyond what is already broken in WordPress?), but have a real problem with Root’s attitude, for which I can’t blame you. Your issue with the faux columns, that it requires an image, is certainly disingenuous given your enthusiasm for images-dependent Kubrick. As long as we understand your criteria.
Meanwhile, we never got to read what were those “glaring usability and … stylistic flaws” with the templates, aside from the fact that Michael doesn’t like three columns (which is an odd criticism of Gemini anyway). So that’s fine, I happen to need three colums with one of my applications, and Michale’s opinion won’t influence that. For a while there I was kinda worried there might really be some “usability and … stylistic flaws,” but I can see now it was all hand-waving.
As you can see, I am simply trying to get the attitude out of the way and get down to the real issues, and as far as I can tell there aren’t any, not really, not at bottom. Matt gets along with Michael much better than he does with Root – which is hardly suprising – and given that we are all human beings here I don’t understand why we can’t just come out and say things like that. That’s it, see? We are talking about Kubrick in the WordPress distribiution rather than Gemini because Root runs around here making enemies and Michael does not.
I have no stake in this, except that I was bemused by the posturing and hypocrisy I was reading in this thread. I am using both Gemini and Trident, and I find them extremely useful. Root has been kind and helpful to me, but I can see he has also been unnecessarily confrontational and pissy to Matt and the developers. If Gemini and Trident lose out to Kubrick in the next WordPress distribution, well too bad for Root; he should have been more polite in the past. But too bad for WordPress users too, since Gemini and Trident are excellent solutions. Luckily, they remain available elsewhere.

It amazes me where this argument has gone. Especially when I made my point known from the beginning. It is obvious that we have a teenager running this show, which is unfortunate because he reduces things to high school level politics which I guess we the insignificant users of wordpress have to live with. Matt not liking Root’s design because you don’t like him, is just plain stupid. It would seem to me that when it comes to CSS positioning he knows more than you. Charleen is flawed and anyone who hits a short post with the long menu can see it. We aren’t stupid. If Root’s design had any flaws it was because he tried to keep as close to the original as possible yet fixing the positioning. Yes, it is ugly, but so is the default. He wasn’t trying to make it pretty, he was trying to make the structure right, it is up to the owner to make it pretty.
Michael, I can tell you, I will not be upgrading my WP again. I am going to be like Movable Type users that will be sitting on version 2.61 until it breaks because they don’t want to deal with the licensing bull. If this is going to be what we have to accept because we aren’t the developer then I don’t have to use it or upgrade it.
My point from the beginning is that Kubrick is an unpleasant install and it is hard to change. I think there are lighter and easier layouts to use and those should be considered. As far as the image file in Root’s layout, you can make a 180 by 10 file in paint that comes standard on Windows. The same cannot be said for Kubrick. Also, I remember how hard it was for me to learn how to create and fix an htaccess file when I had been on WP for a few weeks. All bloggers are not tech geniuses, remember that when you are developing a product for the masses.

Okay, here’s the quick lowdown. I promise I’ll make a complete update when I get home from work, probably on my own site, I’ll be sure to leave a link here once that happens.
Goodsnake: You are assuming that a ‘variant of Kubrick’ is == Kubrick, thus also including the .htaccess setup and whatnot that Kubrick has.
You haven’t actually asked anyone about this, you’re assuming it.
Now do you honestly think that a group of devs that pride themselves from having an install that takes less than 5 minutes, will throw themselves into a messy setup?
Of course not!
But you haven’t asked any of them…
Anyone pissed that I said the following:

“As for Gemini and Trident, I hadn’t heard of them before just now, and having looked them over I’m sorry to say that I’m not particularly impressed. Now I’m not saying this to start a war or anything, but there are some glaring usability and in my opinion stylistic flaws. Obviously I’m biased, but that’s where I stand anyway.”

I mean it… I really think that there are some flaws in it, in terms of its aesthetics, and I wouldn’t want them to represent WP. But that’s me. And again it has nothing to do with anything that’s really going on here, except that Root has hurt feelings.
Root: Deleting my perfectly acceptable comments on your blog and replacing them with [flame deleted] to make me look bad isn’t doing you any favors. Fair enough that you, I owe you an explanation for my remarks, but instead of continually cluttering up this thread with off-topic garbage and launching tantrum assaults from your blog, perhaps you should’ve just mailed me and sorted it out with me.
“But you made it public in the first place!” you say. True, but that’s just how I am, I say what I think. And I think I know at least a little about design and usability.
As I wrote in the comment you deleted from your blog, this thread isn’t about my design aesthetics vs. yours.
To all:
This thread is about using elements from Kubrick in the next WordPress version. No one knows what elements yet. None of the devs know what it’ll be like yet. Matt doesn’t know exactly. I don’t know. And you don’t know.
Instead of bickering over this or that, why not be constructive and make points for what you would like to see changed, if anything.
I’m sorry that I posted what I posted in the first place. Not because it was wrong of me, but because I had forgotten the incredible ability some people have of jumping to conclusions without veryfying with the sources.
And I’m sorry that because of that, this forum turned its nasty side up.
But mostly, I’m sorry that because people are flailing their arms about something they know nothing about, Matt and probably some of the other devs are going to have to spend some time weeding out all the garbage in this thread to find at least a smidgen of usable advice.

I would hazard a guess Michael that singlehandedly and in the space of 12 hours you have reduced the effectiveness of the design department in this forum by about 90%. That is some achievement.

. . . the incredible ability some people have of jumping to conclusions without [verifying] with the sources. . . .

Hey, if it weren’t for jumping to conclusions, I wouldn’t get any exercise at all. I would love to see all of you “kiss and make up” because I am in awe of everyone’s superior (to my own, anyway) ability to churn out compliant designs. I’ve been designing sites for awhile, but I’m lazy and will resort to using tables to force the design to do what I want rather than try to write different stylesheets or employ what I consider to be highwire CSS maneuvers (a/k/a Gemini, et al.) to get it to do what I want. I’ve been chastised by the best of them, but at least it caused me to think a bit (no small feat). So at least **I’ve** learned something coming here. Time and again.
I just hope this continues to be a place where others (table-flaunting newbies included) can come to LEARN, to receive SUPPORT for what I’m sure you all agree is an excellent program, and to make new friends.
[Let me lead you all in a rousing chorus of “Kumbaya” now. . . .)