To: Widget/Plugin programmers

Well, Otto, I’m glad you’re writing widgets. Keep at it. Never in a million years would I pay you for anything. This was a simple request to continue plugin development, not a personal attack on your widgets. If you want to reach only a portion of users, that’s absolutely your choice. I don’t see where “tough luck” needs to be addressed.

Wow. I don’t think any of us were attacking any specific individual at all.

I thought we were simply stating personal opinions and requesting that the plugin folks consider not dropping us completely in favor of widgets….

Otto, if you had another impression, I apologize, but then I haven’t a clue who you are or what widgets you’ve written – or even that you wrote widgets at all….

*sigh*

I wasn’t attacking anyone for creating widget-only plugins. I wasn’t attacking anyone individually or anything like that. I’m not sure how this thread got hijacked the way it did either. But that’s another story.

vkaryl and jennmiller – you guys said it right. it’s not that i begrudge anyone the right to create or use widgets/widget plugins. obviously, if there are widgets in use, there will always be a demand for widget-based plugins. however as vkaryl put it, this was simply a reminder that non-widget users might like to enjoy some of the same results without having to switch to widgets to get them… and to quote my own self (as you did, Otto): “I’d like to make a request that if at all possible, when releasing a plugin that ONLY works with widgets, for you all to consider the fact that non-widget users might enjoy the same results, and if at all possible, you could release both a widget and non-widget version when you do your release.”

I don’t see anywhere in there (or in the entire post either) that I came across as offensive or in “attack mode”… in fact, TWICE i said “if at all possible”. Where is that a demand? Where in that can you find a negative or offensive tone? Did someone pee in your cereal this morning? It wasn’t me… I’m sure.

And in agreement with jennmiller – I’m not going to pay you just because you feel the need to take a “tough luck” attitude about it. I didn’t pay for wordpress, why should I pay you? None of the other non-widget programmers demand money from me… why should you?

You go on writing your widget only plugins, Otto – but don’t expect me to sit here and change MY preferences just because YOU don’t feel like being “bored”. Where was this thread directed at YOU or anyone specific anyway? It was simply a reminder to plugin developers in general that not everyone’s on the widget bandwagon… and some of us won’t ever be.

One more thing. You said, “Old-style plugins where the user still has to go in and hack PHP templates are not. Those form of plugins are not difficult to write, but they’re also kind boring and uninteresting. The only people that will use them are other programmers, because they generally require template hacking to make them work.”

To this day, I’ve yet to have to “hack” any non-widget plugin I’ve used. I download it, install it, activate it, and maybe make a guided (by the plugin author) customization (I’m referring here to things like flashfader and amm). But pretty much any and every plugin I’ve ever used works properly for me “out of the box”. Oh, and I’m not a programmer, as I’ve stated before – so your line about “the only people who will ever use them are other programmers” is beyond the realm of reality. It’s simply not even close to truth.

“HTML/PHP… that’s sorta old hat.” – the web standards movement would stand to disagree with you on that one i think… considering that HTML is where everything began, and without PHP you wouldn’t even HAVE wordpress to begin with.

Aristophanes: Caching is built in already. It’ll only request the RSS feed once per hour by default.

Everybody else: I didn’t think I was being attacked directly or that there was any sort of “attack” at all. I’m sorry if I gave anyone that impression. I was really just calling it as I saw it. Consider that text based communication is poor at conveying emotions. ??

There seems to be a sort of divide here between those who like widgets and those who don’t. I mean, yes, I *could* make non-widget versions of the things I made widgets for. However, I’m really not interested in doing so. That’s really all I was trying to say. The original post did seem to be, well, a bit demanding, and I was just responding to that. ladydeluna, especially reading your other posts, you seem very hostile towards widgets in general, complaining when people suggest widget-based plugins to accomplish tasks you’re asking about.

Look, I’m aware that some people don’t like widgets and that’s fine with me. But to go and rail at widget developers, even in general, that they’re not making non-widget versions… it seems very uncalled for, IMO.

I mean, if you find a widget that you want to be a non-widget, then why not ask the developer to help you out in a nice way, instead of blasting on the entire concept of widgets in general? If somebody came to me and said “hey, how could I use the Google Calendar widget without having widgets?” then I might not actually write the thing, but I’d certainly try to help them out by giving them instructions on how to go about doing it. But having a general gripey attitude gets no points from me, if you see what I’m talking about.

ladydeluna: “maybe make a guided customization”… I hate to tell you this, but you are a programmer. Editing a template is programming. It’s PHP programming, but it is programming nevertheless.

“complaining when people suggest widget-based plugins to accomplish tasks you’re asking about.” – what might you suggest i say when i ask about a plugin for something on a non-widget site and i get an answer for a widget based plugin? should i respond with “great idea! i’ll do that!” even though i have no intent to do it, and will be left where i began, without the plugin? you’re making NO sense here, otto.

once again, you completely misread my original post, and i think it boils down to the fact that YOU are on the defensive about your decision to use widgets. YOU happen to think they’re the greatest thing since sliced bread, and are currently frustrated with the fact that you will neither convince me, or a few others who have posted here, to agree with you.

“instead of blasting on the entire concept of widgets in general” – again, i don’t see where i, nor anyone else did that. we simply stated that we have no desire to use them. in fact, looking back at my original post, i see that i stated “WP is a fantastic open source piece of art – and it should be able to be equally enjoyed by everyone” wouldn’t “everyone” INCLUDE widget users? i think it would, unless your definition of “everyone” is different than mine.

“The original post did seem to be, well, a bit demanding” – HOW does “if at all possible…” come across as demanding? HOW?!?!?!!?

Not for nothing, Otto – but YOU have made this thread hostile. Not I, and certainly not those who chimed in elsewhere. YOU did it. Pat yourself on the back for that one… and thanks for nothing.

I thought this could be an intelligent, adult conversation – apparantly not everyone can handle those.

Having decided to read this post because I am a programmer by profession, I was kind of surprised at the misinterpretation of what Lady of the Moon (if I remember my Spanish correctly) said. I thought it a simple request. And it was just that – a request. Sometimes, I think we take ourselves way too seriously.

So, I will make the same request. If at all possible, please design your new widget/plugin to work for the greatest audience possible. Since I don’t know anything about widget technology, I guess I should study up on it (although I’m still struggling with regular plugin development). I applaud all widget/plugin developers for doing a geat job in helping us use WP in many, many divergent ways.

Maybe what we need is some volunteers to help convert widgets to plugins (if that is even feasible). If I were a plugin/widget developer, I would certainly like to make it as flexible and useful for as many users as possible.

Oh for crying out…

what might you suggest i say when i ask about a plugin for something on a non-widget site and i get an answer for a widget based plugin? should i respond with “great idea! i’ll do that!” even though i have no intent to do it, and will be left where i began, without the plugin?

Maybe you should email the author of the plugin and ask him if there’s a non-widget version available, or if he can help you in some way, instead of shooting the messenger.

once again, you completely misread my original post

You know, after your latest post above, no, I don’t think I did.

and i think it boils down to the fact that YOU are on the defensive about your decision to use widgets.

No, what I’m defensive about is those of us who suggest solutions to your problems and then having you go off on people when they are just trying to help. I’ve seen you do it at least three times now in other threads.

YOU happen to think they’re the greatest thing since sliced bread, and are currently frustrated with the fact that you will neither convince me, or a few others who have posted here, to agree with you.

I don’t care to convince you. Really. I do care when you drive away people for trying to be helpful.

again, i don’t see where i, nor anyone else did that. we simply stated that we have no desire to use them.

You’ve now done it twice in this thread and at least three times in other threads.

“The original post did seem to be, well, a bit demanding” – HOW does “if at all possible…” come across as demanding? HOW?!?!?!!?

Just because you add “if at all possible” does not make your post any less demanding.

You’re asking that people who do this sort of thing, for free, take their time to think about you and your needs, also for free, and for no benefit to themselves. My comments about paying somebody were intended to make you realize that people develop this stuff out of the goodness of their hearts, and that you really have no right to ask for anything whatsoever. So when you cop an attitude of “I’m getting left out here because I don’t like widgets, why won’t people do this stuff for me!”, then yes, I call that demanding. “If at all possible” is nonsensical. Of course it’s possible. But that doesn’t mean I or anybody else has to do it just because it’s possible.

You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar, that’s my point.

Not for nothing, Otto – but YOU have made this thread hostile. Not I, and certainly not those who chimed in elsewhere. YOU did it. Pat yourself on the back for that one… and thanks for nothing.

Bunk. You started out being whiney and demanding and I called you on it.

I thought this could be an intelligent, adult conversation – apparantly not everyone can handle those.

I can handle those just fine, actually. I even tried to get the thread back on topic above, and you just had to take it a step further and prove how hostile you really are. Good job.

BTW, I’d be happy to help anybody convert any widgets they like into non-widgets. As long as you ask nicely, that is. ??

Yeah. And pay you, right? Check the forum rules about offering your “services” here in the forums, Otto. (And don’t turn now and say it’s for free – your original post about your “reasonable rates” is uneditable now.)

You have no idea what you’re talking about, and you’ve decided that you’re going to displace a persona on me, someone you don’t know at ALL.

How dare you come in here and assume that what I said, in the way I said it, meant anything else other than what was written!? YOU might live your life that way, sugar coating your way through lies or deceit, however the whole world doesn’t work like you. When I say something, I mean it. And I mean it in only the way it’s written, with the words I’ve used. You’ve been here two weeks and have completely misunderstood me – the others who agreed with me, have seen me here almost daily for over 6 months now. Guess who’s WRONG?

I’m so tired of this. I made a simple statement, a point of view (that must I remind you, was welcomed by other people who feel the same way I do, and did NOT misinterpret what I said), and the ONLY person doing the bashing is YOU, Otto. Grow the hell up and get over yourself. Go make your damn widget plugins and leave it alone.

I’m done.

EDIT: Thank you jwurster – for being one of the majority who really understood my “tone” and intention here. I appreciate it.

Yeah. And pay you, right? Check the forum rules about offering your “services” here in the forums, Otto. (And don’t turn now and say it’s for free – your original post about your “reasonable rates” is uneditable now.)

Clearly you are not actually reading my posts. I never asked for any payment of any kind.

You have no idea what you’re talking about, and you’ve decided that you’re going to displace a persona on me, someone you don’t know at ALL.

All I know about you is what you post. But what you are posting seems to come across very clearly, to me.

How dare you come in here and assume that what I said, in the way I said it, meant anything else other than what was written!?

I did no such thing. I read what you wrote and went based entirely on what it said. If you think that I’m getting the wrong impression, perhaps you should write more clearly.

YOU might live your life that way, sugar coating your way through lies or deceit, however the whole world doesn’t work like you. When I say something, I mean it. And I mean it in only the way it’s written, with the words I’ve used.

Then my impressions are correct?

I’m so tired of this. I made a simple statement, a point of view (that must I remind you, was welcomed by other people who feel the same way I do, and did NOT misinterpret what I said), and the ONLY person doing the bashing is YOU, Otto. Grow the hell up and get over yourself. Go make your damn widget plugins and leave it alone.

I’ll do just that. Might I also suggest that you take your own advice and stop complaining when people try to help but it’s not the specific help you’re looking for?

I’m done.

Good.

Okay Mr. I’ve-Been-Here-For-Two-Weeks-So-I-Know-Everything-About-You…

whatever you want to think about me is FINE. go ahead and displace your anger on me if it makes you feel better.

go get some sleep, otto – i think your “brilliant” work with widgets has made you overly cranky, you GENIUS!

reminder: you said “BTW, my prices are very reasonable, so if you’re interested in a custom plugin, email me. :)” that’s offering a service for money, and completely against forum rules.

I thought you were done?

Okay Mr. I’ve-Been-Here-For-Two-Weeks-So-I-Know-Everything-About-You…

Nice, but I’m not sure what it has to do with anything. Like I said before, all I know about you is what you post.

whatever you want to think about me is FINE. go ahead and displace your anger on me if it makes you feel better.

Now who’s reading things that are not there? I’m not angry. I’m only vaguely amused, at best.

go get some sleep, otto – i think your “brilliant” work with widgets has made you overly cranky, you GENIUS!

Are you kidding me? The widgets I’ve made are trivial hacks, at best. Genius they are most certainly not.

reminder: you said “BTW, my prices are very reasonable, so if you’re interested in a custom plugin, email me. :)” that’s offering a service for money, and completely against forum rules.

Like I already stated above but which you clearly did not read: “My comments about paying somebody were intended to make you realize that people develop this stuff out of the goodness of their hearts, and that you really have no right to ask for anything whatsoever.” I don’t actually have a price list. ??

and i don’t actually care.
buh-bye otto. take your bashing elsewhere please.

Mods, could this thread be moderated or closed or something? I’ve tried to be as polite as I can, but this is getting ridiculous.

This sort of discussion really belong on your own blogs; the WP forum is for support issues.

This discussion is neither helpful nor productive and is heading into flamewar territory which is why I’m closing the thread.