No WHITE-Label || Not Open Source || No DIY allowed

Hi Xarius,
You’ve raised several points, and I want to give you a proper answer to each point. Before that, I want you to know that I appreciate your involvement with our product and I can see from your feedback that this is something you care about deeply.

So first regarding DIY. Once you hand off your project to the client they can definitely make changes and edit their pages themselves. Regarding offering designers the ability to offer hosting, With the current pricing of Elementor Pro of $199 for our unlimited plan, this is not something that is sustainable for our business. You have to give us credit to choose what we can and can’t afford in terms of our business model.

Regarding white label. We are considering several solutions in that department. It’s no simple matter, and if we will offer this we want to do it right.

Regarding your last point. You wrote: ‘Imagine, the company behind Elementor gets closed or the main developer gets sick or dies. Nobody else can then continue developing Elementor.’

So, first of all, Elementor is a free and open source standalone plugin, available in the WordPress repo, that developers will always be able to further develop. There are dozens of Elementor addons and a huge community of users that have built around Elementor in the short time since our launch. We recently published a developers dedicated website (https://developers.elementor.com) and released complete code reference (https://code.elementor.com/) and developers API. It took us months to create these assets, so our commitment to help developers extend Elementor is beyond question.

Furthermore, the situation you are describing might fit a short-lived plugin handled by a single developer. Elementor is a company with almost a million active installs, and dozens of employees that work full time to maintain and further develop it. We are thinking ten years forward and beyond, and this is why we put great thought into matters than can jeopardize our sustainability like a white label option, hosting services with Elementor Pro and a lifetime license. All 3 of these are problematic for a company that thinks forward.

In conclusion, we set out to make Elementor the best possible solution for designers. This means not only producing the best solution, but also making the right business decisions to properly grow and sustain it.

If you would like to continue this conversation you are welcome to contact me.

The point is the pro devs don’t use any page builder because they can achieve effect faster just coding. Page builders were created for novices without html coding knowledge.

Dear @benpines

thank you very much that you responded to my review here!

I will also come back to your offer:

>> If you would like to continue this
>> conversation you are welcome to contact me.

So, please allow me to respond to your message:

>> I can see from your feedback that
>> this is something you care about deeply.

Yes, absolutely!
Elementor is everything I ever wanted for my clients and more.
I love Elementor to pieces!

And it makes me more than sad, that the Elementor is useless for my current business model due to its terms which are lacking in practical relevance – and it’s more likely than not that I am not the only one facing this issue.

My current business model is:
Building websites for clients and _not_ asking for a lot of money upfront, but earning money by hosting the clients.
Passive income -> Better life.

Of course it’s also important that the clients don’t see “Elementor” (meaning: White Label!) because otherwise they see the website of Elementor and the nice video with the information to just try Elementor because it’s free.

NO DIY-SOLUTIONS
================

>> Once you hand off your project to the client
>> they can definitely make changes and edit their
>> pages themselves. Regarding offering designers
>> the ability to offer hosting, With the current
>> pricing of Elementor Pro of $199 for our unlimited
>> plan, this is not something that is sustainable
>> for our business.

But it makes no difference for you / the developers of ELementor / pojo.me.

Look, you offer an unlimited site license for $ 199.
So, Designers could design unlimited websites for clients for $ 199.

What difference does it make for YOU, if the designer earns some money extra by hosting the clients?

With the current terms of Elementor, designers would be required to finish a project, hand it off to the client, and ask the client to host the website at some other place, because the designer is not allowed to host the site himself/herself.

But why is it okay for you / the developers of ELementor / pojo.me if an OTHER company hosts the client, as long as it’s NOT the designer who designed the website?

The designers are the clients of Elementor.
The designers pay money for using Elementor.

So please be on our side!
Let us earn some money for hosting clients!

Why should be hand off the projects to clients and let OTHER providers earn money with our clients?
Do these other providers pay money for Elementor?
Or is it us, the designers, who pay for Elementor?
Again, please be on our side and let us make money by hosting our clients!

Concerning the price:
You say, an unlimited site license for $ 199 is not sustainable.

Again, it makes no difference _where_ the client will be hosted.
If we (the designers) or an other provider hosts the clients.

You offer the unlimited site license for $ 199 anyway.

If it’s not sustainable: Why don’t you ask for more money then?
I did not complain about the price!
Really, I really did _not_ complain about the price in any way, even if it was more expensive!

Please, just don’t charge on a per-site-basis or with recurring fees.
Please keep an unlimited site license!
But again, I would _not_ mind if it was more expensive!

The two biggest competitors (Beaver Builder and Divi 3) also made it possible.
There are no issues with hosting clients as far as I understand it. (this is NO legal advice – just my personal understanding – I am NOT a lawyer)

ELEMENTOR BEING OPEN SOURCE
===========================

>> So, first of all, Elementor is a free and open source
>> standalone plugin, available in the WordPress repo,
>> that developers will always be able to further develop.

Yes, but only the free version.
Imagine I build hundrets of websites for clients using Elementor Pro.
And then, the copany behind Elementor closes for whatever reason (e.g. death of devs)
I will be totally stuck then.
No matter if there is a free version of Elementor with limited functionality.

Again, also in this department: the two biggest competitors (Beaver Builder and Divi 3) also made it possible.
They are both Open Source!
When I build a huge business model around a page builder, I want to have piece in mind.

You will hopefully continue to develop Elementor anyway.
So paying for a recurring membership to get updates makes totally sense!!
It’s about the worst-case-scenario in which open source helps. (e.g. the company behind Elementor closes or stops developing it or…)

WHITE LABEL
===========

>> Regarding white label. We are considering
>> several solutions in that department.
>> It’s no simple matter, and if we will
>> offer this we want to do it right.

Why don’t you just add a plan for Agencies with a price sustainable for your business model, offering:

*) white label
*) DIY solutions
*) open source

Just ask for the price you need to ask for.
But please offer the solution at all.

Side-note:

*) Beaver Builder offers a plan allowing to white-label!
*) For Divi, there are 3rd party plugins for white-labeling!

Even though I could not find an official statement from Elegant Themes concerning white-labeling, I found a blog entry on the official elegantthemes website introducing such a white label plugin, so I *guess* they are fine with it! (this is NO legal advice – just my personal understanding – I am NOT a lawyer)

QUESTION
========

You mentioned:

>> So, first of all, Elementor is a free and open source
>> standalone plugin, available in the WordPress repo,
>> that developers will always be able to further develop.

If this is really how you feel about it, let me ask you publicly:

Do you allow people to…

1) fork Elementor

2) rename Elementor and give it a totally NEW name

3) remove all visible traces of Elementor, for example but not limited to the “Elementor” logo, the link back to Elementor (“About Elementor”), the hints “Go Pro” and all the other visible traces of Elementor as long as all “appropriate copyright notices” in the _source_code_ remain intact?

If so, people could private label / white label it, use it for DIY services, and rest assured as it’s GPL v3.

According to the GPL v3, this would be perfectly legal! (this is NO legal advice – just my personal understanding – I am NOT a lawyer)

So my question:
Are there any “Additional Terms” in place?

I am talking about the GPL v3, section “7. Additional Terms” or could people do as I described above:

Use the open source version of Elementor, re-name it / private label it / white label it / and use it for DIY solutions?

PS.:
If you ever added “Additional Terms”, where would you do so?
On Github?

Regards,
Xarius

==========
@benpines @pojome @arielk-1 @mati1000 @bainternet @yehudah @kingyes @jzaltzberg @pojosh @ramiy

• This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by xarius.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by xarius.

Oh no, this can’t be true ??
Till now I did not know about you cannot resell, never thought this would be even possible.

This destroys all my prep work and plannings I’ve done for months (inclusive my nearly done first website for my first client). I just can’t believe it, why does such things always happen to me.

Is there no possibility to resell this in any way? Please I must know. When not I sadly have to switch to another builder and start from the beginning. I hate this so much and have no time also. *sight*

Please make this atleast more prominent on you website (not deep in the TOS) that not other people experience the same as me right now.

I also think that Elementor should have an “Agency Package” that overcomes all the current serious limitations related to “No WHITE-Label”, “Not Open Source” and “No DIY allowed” like Xarius exposes.

I think that a fair price would be $399, similar to the Beaver Builder Agency Package.

@benpines
Thanks for your reply above!

I only want to say that:
White Labeling sounds nice in theory but I am not ashamed for Elementor or the company behind it. My clients know it from day one what the product is called, what it does and who made it. It’s a great product. There’s plenty stuff to be proud of.
I do not “offer” stuff in my name that was not made by me. I find that unethical. I like playing with open cards here. Clients feel that and will thank me later on. — And exactly this now happens to me since 18 years that I am in the business already.

Regarding “Open Source”:
I guess a lot of us mean switching to fully GPL license with that – regarding Elementor Pro. This is something I would totally applaud. In my opinion Elementor (Pro) will nothing lose by being fully GPL-licensed but only win.

Thanks, Dave ??

I do not care about white label anything.
There is only this section in TOS which makes things for many of us very bad:

“No Hosting or Resale: You may not provide access to an Elementor installation as a hosting service provider or a reseller, and you may not provide to others as part of a “Software As-a-Service” (SaaS). You may not bundle it and resell it as a commercial, off the shelf, license or product. This means that you can use Elementor as a part of a commercial project where you design a theme for your client, but cannot use it in a theme or DIY website hosting solution”

I really would like to know how can I host and manage my sites for clients with such a restriction? Is this still possible if I buy a Pro license for each customer?

I also do not understand this in detail, can anyone please explain me the exact restrictions?

I mean there must be a way to follow my business plan: Make WP-Website based in Elementor and sell recuring maintenance service fee (plugin upgrades, marketing service etc.).

I am happy for any advice or experience of other Elementor users.

Thanks,
Manuel

a quick “shout-out” to Ben and the crew: What a wonderful product, and what integrity the Elementor team is bringing forth here! So happy to be on board.

Without knowing the intricacies of all the legal details, is it fair to simplify it down to this:

What the folks at Elementor (who are making a living with this product) want to prevent, perhaps, and certainly discourage, is for folks taking advantage of their hard work, and “handing out the keys” to the product to users who are not contributing financially in any way to it? – Perhaps, if we look at it that way, we may feel a bit more compassion and understanding for the good people at Elementor, who try to do both: Support their faithful users and rightful paying customers for the pro plugin, but even the free one, without running the risk of some folks out there trying to abuse the situation, undermine the trust the authors put forth, and somehow try to enrich themselves with the “work” others have put in during long hours over the longer haul (such as Ben!)

With that said, can we trust the good people at Elementor have done their best, perhaps followed some legal advise, when putting together the TOS frame we are discussing here?

THANKS AGAIN, for all those contributing to this success story called “Elementor” – which turned out to be a win-win-win as far as I can see!

Hello @daveshine,

thank you for participating in this discussion!

You wrote:

>> White Labeling sounds nice in theory but
>> I am not ashamed for Elementor or the
>> company behind it. My clients know it from
>> day one what the product is called

I believe you, that this is a good choice for you!
However, business models, pricing, the target market, etc. can vary a lot.

People think so differently all over the world (even within the same city), and really, in my case (for my target market + business model), I am absolutely sure that a White-Label-Option for Elementor is crucial!

I know my clients – and it happened too often in the past:

The client googles “Elementor”.

They find Elementor’s website with this nice video explaining how incredibly _easy_ it is and that you can simply try it out because it’s FREE!

Many of my clients simply cannot think of the value I add. I see the value. They just hear “FREE” or even if it was not free, they would still see that it’s cheap and that they could save money. My clients are on a budget.

Then things come up like:
“You are not a real designer”
“You just use a free / cheap builder that I could use myself!”
“What am I even paying you for?”

I like business models that need little to no explanation / discussion.

Once I have to start to justify myself, to explain the value I add, and to explain what value I add compared to doing it themselves using Elementor, something has horribly gone wrong already.

Such discussions should not occur in the first place.

We had it all – either happening to us and/or happening to fellow webdesigners:

=> clients threatening with bad google reviews

=> clients threatening with a shitstorm on the company’s facebook page

=> clients arguing for _days_ about the pricing because the webdesigner uses a builder that is sooo easy to use that the client could have done it themself.

Of course, this did not happen all on one day, but I have also been in the business since a long time.

So, I totally accept your opinion and your business model.

However, for my target market / business model / pricing model / etc., it’s crucial to white label Elementor.

And again, let us also keep in mind the other 2 issues:

HOSTING:
It’s important that we can legally host clients ourselves.
Again, what does it help to let an other provider make the money?
We (the webdesigners) could simply rent a server and resell webspace which means very good passive income.

OPEN SOURCE:
Also being open source is crucial!!!! (talking about the PRO version)

Imagine you build your whole business model on creating websites using Elementor, and then the company behind Elementor closes (e.g. because the developer dies or whatever)

They can tell me about the free version being open source whatever they want…

When I use the PRO version (NOT open source!), I must also be able to rest assured that the development of the PRO version does not have to end just because the company behind Elementor closes.

As long as the PRO version is not open source, we’d be in really, really, really _huge_ trouble.

DIVI is open source and seems to have no issue with white-labeling + DIY services. (this is NO legal advice – just my personal understanding – I am NOT a lawyer)

BEAVER BUILDER is open source, allows white-labeling + DIY services. (this is NO legal advice – just my personal understanding – I am NOT a lawyer)

So why can’t Elementor do it, too?

But I am repeating myself.

You know my opinion.

Regards,
Xarius

Hearing your concerns loud and clear, Xarius, and certainly honor them.

The issue with clients engaging in arguments about *what* they are paying us, the developers for, brings this response out: *Release them back to the industry* – as they are more trouble than asset (yes, easier said than done, and yet, those low level clients drain energy that could be going those that truly value what we do).

Beyond that, there is solid trust that the great folk at Elementor will find ways to make sure that we all are able to enjoy and benefit from this great plugin!

@xarius
Thank you for the feedback. We will take that into account.
Sincerely
Ben

Elementor IS indeed a tool that pro devs use to improve their workflow and reduce the amount of redundant code we would otherwise have to write into custom php template files…something I have done well over a thousand times in my career. Even though I can write html/php/js/css all very fluently and fast, nothing is faster when it comes to building the grid + unique elements that would otherwise have to be hand coded into separate “partials” each with their own accompanying css/js pulled into php template files…no, not faster to code by hand, sorry. Again I feel confident I can have a voice in this debate as I’ve written hundreds of thousands of lines of code prior to Elementor and had reservations about “front end page builders” until Elementor came around.

I also provide hosting for some of my clients and I don’t see what the argument is with Elementor in that regard. All I see Ben stating is that it would not be economical for Elementor to provide hosting as a service bundled with Elementor, obviously, no? What am I missing? Is there some sort of statement somewhere where Elementor has taken a hard position of NOT being able to use their product on sites that are also hosted by the same designer/developer? I’d need to hear their good reason if this is true!

White Label, yes it’s open source meaning you can do whatever you wish for the free version of the product. So just do it already or wait for the feature; Ben already stated it is something they are considering but they want to do it right.

Customer messing up website? Now this one I find it difficult to swallow. Elementor provides so many ways to protect yourself, especially now that you can even further define a wp user type of only editing of text/images if desired. You can backup the website, save the complete pages (even sections) as templates and even export/import them, you can use the History feature to also roll back…it’s pretty bullet proof if you know what you are doing and adds job security for when/if the client does mess something up as the customer is generating more revenue for you to come back in and fix it.

So what if a customer sees that Elementor is free and easy to use and that is also what you used on their site? They surely don’t have the skills and experience to pull off what you can and surely they will find it is not as easy to have that feng shui of a skilled designer nor the css skills of a front end developer. This is actually what attracted me to Elementor, seeking two things…

1) A fast but clean (code-wise) front end with very capable features a web professional can actually use, customize and hook into…and…

2) A fairly simple and straightforward way for my clients to edit copy without messing with code or bothering me about the little things.

Elementor met those needs and continues to refine the polish. Feedback like yours is what propels this forward but at the same time, let’s be realistic for the entire community when making requests in a demanding fashion and not just your own specific needs that don’t really apply to the rest of us. It’s great to ask…but to demand them is a bit inconsiderate.

Your clients MUST see value in what you provide them, if they don’t see that there is no one to blame but yourself, a free product is not to blame nor would it be the reason you lose work, because honestly if they CAN do what you do than I would agree with your customer, why would they need you if you’re just a glorified point and clicker vs providing some actual value, what do you bring to the table?

#1 reason I get work and retain customers…because I’m a problem solver and people need me for what I know, the things I’ve learned over the years through experience that they won’t take the time to learn on their own but I surely don’t go out and attack all the free learning available on the web that would otherwise allow them to do what I do and no longer need my services. Good for them I say.

Rereading the part about hosting/resell, I interpret it this way:

One cannot bundle Elementor inclusive with a monthly hosting product or otherwise resell it packaged with something like a theme or even a monthly plan. I do not do this.

When I offer hosting to some of my clients (I am trying to move away from this responsibility – honestly not worth it), it is for hosting ONLY. The needed resources for the website to have a home.

When I provide design and website development, charged separately, I use Elementor as a tool (for me) and not so much them, per se.

Big difference. If they stop using my services, I can remove the domain from my Elementor account dashboard so nothing will stop working on their site except for updates/pro support being on my dime, they would then be forced to purchase their own copy as I’m sure team Elementor would prefer.

After some talk with Elementor’s support, for me I got this:

I can host my clients websites and charge recurring fees for services etc. (even involving Elementor) as long the client buys his own personal licence from the Elementor website which I can then use for the clients website.

Anything other seems restricted. So unlimited sites license seems not for clients but only for personal use on unlimited sites (or on unlimited sites for one client if the one client buys by himself this license and gives it to me to host/build multiple sites).

Hi,

I for one would not even want to “white label” and take credit for Elementors work!
My clients all know upfront that I am using WordPress and Elementor.

They know most of it is available for free, and they know they are paying me for my expertise and time I invest to create and maintain their website.

I actually invite those who would complain, to just go ahead and create it themselves.
In 10+ years working with WordPress, I had maybe 3 clients that actually tried it first and came back humbled asking me to do the work and were glad to pay me for my time and expertise afterwords.

Explain to a client that using free WordPress or shared licenses for a pagebuilder, makes it possible to offer them affordable yet professional website.
I never had a client complain about that!

Annie