Gutenberg is the wrong direction

(@otto42)

I’ve been at this longer than you have.

You’ve been using WP since before v1? That would be an interesting tale to hear.

Why do you think that having blocks matters, exactly?

Because “blocks” separate the content. It’s not a flow. It’s not a continuous text.

As I understand it, blocks are also dependent on Javascript. Text should always be rendered as text It may include markup, but that markup is a universal standard that is easily read by any browser or other utility.

If the blocks don’t interfere with my writing ability, then why should I care how the backend is organized?

That’s exactly the point. Or, one amongst many. Blocks absolutely interfere with my writing. That’s been the primary feedback across the board.

You seem to be opposed to the very idea of blocks on some deep level that I do not understand.

A) I use Elementor on a few of my own sites. I have not problem with separating content into “blocks”–as long as it makes sense.

B) Page-builders (like Elementor) are add-ons. They’re an advanced tool for those who are interested in using advanced tools. I work with clients who wouldn’t know a header tag from a hole in the ground. I’ve been on the internet since before there was a “World Wide Web”–and I couldn’t figure out how to use Gutenberg.

They give you more control, not less.

They introduce (and require) more complexity where none is needed.

A couple years ago, I flew back home form overseas and rented a car to get from ORD to my home town.

1. The car didn’t have a key. It took me a couple minutes to figure out how to open the door, and another couple to figure out how to turn on the engine.
2. The controls for the heating were all on a touch-screen. Rather than being able to reach over and turn a knob, I had to navigate a series of menus–which required me to direct my eye and my attention to an unfamiliar series of screens, while trying to drive in interstate traffic around Chicago. I drove in the cold for 100 miles because I had a choice of paying attention to the touch screen or paying attention to the road.

“Blocks” are an unnecessary, and overly complicated, “solution” to a “problem” that doesn’t exist. And, just like the touch-screen controls in that rental car, they add levels of complexity that have no value–and make it harder to actually accomplish what the user wants.

If you feel that Gutenberg is of value to you, great; add it as a plugin (just like I’ve added Elementor to several sites I manage). But please don’t insist that I have to adopt some overly-complicated, contrived “advancement” that just adds layers of complexity to an existing, elegant, tool.

I say: If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

I say: If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

That’s the problem. The classic editor was broken. Very, very much so. It needed to be fixed.

The problem is that the underlying system is built on those blocks. The fact that WordPress was automatically creating them with things like wpautop just hid that from you.

Bringing those to the surface, showing them to you, giving you control over them, that’s the fix here. The new editor is simply better. I’m sorry that you don’t like it, but your opinion doesn’t actually change anything.

Because “blocks” separate the content. It’s not a flow. It’s not a continuous text.

Only in your head. There’s no box around those blocks for a reason. On the screen, it actually is a continuous text. Look at it. See with your eyes.

A couple years ago, I flew back home form overseas and rented a car to get from ORD to my home town.
…

So, your story here is that you couldn’t figure out how to work a touchscreen in a car, because instead of taking the time to learn the system before driving, you jumped in and tried to multitask. That didn’t work out so well for you.

The thing you should be taking away from your own story is that you could have spent a few minutes familiarizing yourself with the unfamiliar interface, instead of making assumptions that ended up with you driving in the cold for 100 miles. The error was your own, not the interface’s.

Hey, if you want to move on to another open source project, then by all means, please do so. We understand. However, it is my opinion that the new editor is better, and also necessary for continued growth. People want to have more control over the way they publish on the web, and better systems to give them more control are needed. This is the start of such a system.

A couple years ago, I flew back home form overseas and rented a car to get from ORD to my home town.
…

What a great way to summarize the difference! I can truly relate to this, as I have to drive an elderly man in his car that has push button gear changes and a touch screen for everything else. I hate how that car’s controls are! They are truly dangerous and very difficult to use. Even after I spent 10 minutes finding all the controls and how to work them, I can’t do that while driving.

The new editor is not a better interface for page editing. And it promotes putting page-specific styling and performance-slowing dynamic rendering into pages that will make it more difficult to have a consistent look and feel to a site. It makes it more likely to be locked in to one theme or plugin that supplies something for a page or two.
And thinking about that methodology taking over the entire admin is a bit uncomfortable. I don’t like it for how it is today, but I really don’t like to think it would extend beyond the editor.

Simple, and I mean SIMPLE user here. I went to edit my pages this AM and surprise! New editor, new everything. I don’t get paid enough to spend the time I had to spent today to just add a new paragraph to a page. I don’t need to do anything complicated. I’m not a whiz, but I know html and use it to often make ‘simple’ corrections/additions. It’s nice to have it easily accessible; in the old editor it was right up front, nice big square to click.

I’m not a power user. I’m not comfortable enough with the whole process to go pushing buttons to convert anything for fear I will screw the whole website. I finally discovered the add-on, but looks like that will only be supported through 2021. Great. I have 3 websites that took me years to develop, they are simple pages, nothing fancy. I am one of the million users that immediately looked for a way to convert to the old editor. I’m sure by trying to make it ‘easier’ you’ve alienated many users who are just not that interested in exploring a whole new way of doing things.

I had to scroll up and down each time I needed a tool as it was not constantly visible. After I was able to find it, the html editor seems to have a mind of it’s own and doesn’t show breaks so it’s readable. Sorry this new thing is a mess and if I’m still in business in 2021 I will be looking for a way to convert to 4.9 or a completely new provider. As far as I can tell I don’t need and will never need ‘blocks’.

@ginetteadmin

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned a fork of WordPress. It’s called ClassicPress, and it looks to be a reasonably well-supported fork that is dedicated to keeping the classic editor, while maintaining all other support and updates.

There have been a number of semi-contentious changes to WP over the years (though most of the changes only mattered to power-users and purists), but this is the first time I’ve heard of a change severe enough to cause a legitimate fork to the project.

@otto42

That’s the problem. The classic editor was broken. Very, very much so. It needed to be fixed.

In what way was it broken?

The problem is that the underlying system is built on those blocks.

Nope. The underlying system was built on rendering HTML. Automatically adding paragraph marks isn’t the same as blocks.

Bringing those to the surface, showing them to you, giving you control over them, that’s the fix here.

I had control over them. It’s called “HyperText Markup Language”. I could change the formatting of any bit of text I want–either through the TinyMCE editor (I used the “advanced” plugin)–which is just a simply WYSIWYG that’s been around since the early days of the Web–or directly through HTML editing.

Are blocks rendering anything that can’t be rendered with HTML? If the answer is “no”, then they are not giving me anything. They’re just adding complexity.

The new editor is simply better. I’m sorry that you don’t like it, but your opinion doesn’t actually change anything.

And this is the heart of the matter: You’re right, we’re all wrong, “just deal with it”.

You’re ignoring the first rule of business:

Quality is conformity to customer requirements.

You can’t just shove something into production and insist that it’s “better because I say so”. 72% of the feedback is saying “This isn’t better” or “This is worse”. But you’re not listening.

I have yet to see anyone explain, exactly, <i>how</i> Gutenberg is better.

• What, exactly, are the “problems” that it “fixes”?
• What “control” does it give me that I did not have before?
• How does the higher level of complexity benefit the majority of users?
• How is the added investment in time going to benefit me? (What’s the ROI?)

Unless you can provide answers to those questions which satisfy 80% of your users, it’s not “simply better”.

So, your story here is that you couldn’t figure out how to work a touchscreen in a car, because instead of taking the time to learn the system before driving, you jumped in and tried to multitask. That didn’t work out so well for you.

And there’s the 2nd issue with the “Gutenberg attitude”: Your approach isn’t “I should build something that is intuitive and simple to use”, it’s “deride the people that don’t understand my new-fangled way of doing things.

The thing you should be taking away from your own story is that you could have spent a few minutes familiarizing yourself with the unfamiliar interface, instead of making assumptions that ended up with you driving in the cold for 100 miles. The error was your own, not the interface’s.

{sigh} I’ve been driving for over 35 years. I’ve driven a dozen types of vehicles (including some that require a CDL). I shouldn’t have to “familiarize myself” with anything. It should be intuitive.

In a car, there are a couple systems that are basic and constantly used. “Heat” is one of them. It should be a big button on the screen. Touch that, and there should be a slider that has “cold” on the left and “hot” on the right. Slide the slider and change the temp.

It is absolutely the fault of the interface (or, more specifically, the UI designers) if it requires detailed reading and multiple-level menus to get to something as basic as “heat/AC”.

People want to have more control over the way they publish on the web, and better systems to give them more control are needed. This is the start of such a system.

I already use Elementor on several of my sites. I’ve taught a couple other people to use it. I’m not opposed to page-building tools–for those who want them. They can be great. Elementor has a few quirks I’m not happy with, but, overall, it provides “added value” to me. And a major part of that value is that I get to choose which pages I use it on.

Gutenberg isn’t providing “added value”. It’s requiring that everyone change the most basic way that they interact with the product–regardless of what the users want or need, and irrespective of how they actually use it.

I’ll be clear: I don’t expect for a second that WP will change course on this. But I want them to understand that Gutenberg has a large, strong, and vocal opposition. At least then they might understand why people are leaving.

You’re ignoring the first rule of business:

You’re ignoring the fact that WordPress isn’t a company. It’s open source software. It’s built by the people who show up to build it.

If you want to move on, then move on. Won’t affect me or anybody else one bit.

Best of luck to you and your new software choices.