Front-end

Most visitors visit a site because it is aesthetically appealing, it does what they are wanting it to do and it is easy to navigate. Introducing the backend to members of a site (unless they are “plugin developers” or creating their own sub site (as with multisite), is confusing to members. It’s the same as sending them to a different site. It breaks up the flow of the website and will cause a member to look for something easier to deal with.

“Experts” have mulled this over since the beginning of time (as we know it). People want things easy, quick and consistent. We could debate the fact that “Because displaying limited data on the front end is no different than displaying it on the back end except that it requires the plugin author to do even MORE work to add all this front end support” for eternity, but it really breaks down to a few simple facts.

As a developer one might believe that there is no need to do anything extra because (in one’s mind) one doesn’t see the need for the extra work. Or as a developer, one can listen to those who are potential users of my product. If one chooses what one thinks is the right way to go (over what people say they want), then those who otherwise would use my product, will go somewhere else that has a developer or group of developers who will listen and will give them what they want. Plain and simple.

WordPress has over 20,000 plugins as far as I can tell, and a growing number of themes. Every one of those plugins and themes are developed because someone wants a different look, more or less functionality.

With this plugin, we want front end functionality. As with other plugins, if the developer doesn’t respond with what people are looking for, another developer will eventually pick it up and feel it is worth the “extra work” to provide what is wanted. So, being a developer “s3w47m88”, of a possible competing plugin with this one and coming here arguing why you have abandoned the idea of what we want, and believe your idea is sufficient isn’t going to change anyone’s minds here.

It’s simple… give us what we want, or we go to someone who will.

Or someone here will fork this plugin (because it is a good one) and add the functionality people want. That’s what makes the world go round…

Since I now understand that you’re not a developer it’s clearer, to me, why we have a disconnect.

If you don’t want users to sign in or access the back end; then I would recommend you seek out a non-WordPress based application (AKA Basecamp). I think it’s uncommon, and seemingly nonsensical, for someone to view membership and WordPress’ back end as “cumbersome and wholly unnecessary”.

I can’t think of a single project management tool that doesn’t require any users to sign in before viewing the data. So even if the developer of this plugin chose to display the data on the front end it’s still most likely that users should have to sign in (even if they stay on the front end). Otherwise literally anyone can see their projects details.

Regarding your comment about being “technically an idjit” – by the way that made me laugh out loud for several reason :p – it’s assumed that whatever solution provided must be “idjit” proof. In fact, providing them with a consistent UI such as WP’s admin UI is exactly the reason why I’m advocating for it over a custom front end UI.

Lastly, controlling how the data is displayed can be done in the front end as easily as it can be on the back end (actually it’s easier). I’d love to hear some examples of what you mean (sincerely). My staff and I have forked this project already and love to hear from the people.

I hope this makes sense to you now.

With all due respect @s3w47m88, you are not the developer of this plugin. Your recommendation that anyone go somewhere else is more an indication of your lack of understanding of what the rest of us are looking for. We like WordPress and it’s adaptability. We like the developers here who listen to what we are looking for and I might suggest that you take your own advice an go to a different platform or forum. We want the front end functionality. You have made it clear, you aren’t interested in providing it, and you have done it on another developer’s support forum.

You don’t see the need for what we want. You don’t believe it’s worth the extra work, and having looked at your plugin, it’s not what will do for me what I want. So, I am here talking with the developer of this plugin. Sell your idea in your support forum.

ellsweb, since your the second person who seems to think I’m arguing I suppose I should clarify:

1. Our fork of Propel is being merged with our fork of WPPM. So we view ourselves as a contributor, not a competitor. And that’s why I’m in this conversation.
2. I’m sincerely trying to help anyone who believes that a front end UI is necessary by advising them to rely on a platform other than WordPress (such as Drupal or Basecamp). This is because the nature of WordPress encourages users to rely on their admin UI instead of reinventing the wheel (which is why there are design standards regarding administrative UI’s nowadays).

Of course you’re all welcome to do whatever you please, you’ll probably just have better luck with existing platforms if you’re looking for a front end UI.

So, now that I understand that you are arguing against development of the front end on this project and that you quite possibly will be involved in the decisions relating to this plugin, I guess that should tell the rest of us where this is heading.

As I stated before, there are people who will listen to what we want.
It’s a shame you are attempting to sell what you are attempting to sell. Basically, and to be quite honest, the backend is not what we want, nor is it what our customers want. The backend is designed so that it is not easily themed or redesigned or modified for different functionality.

We want it on the front end. “Of course you’re all welcome to do whatever you please, you’ll probably just have better luck with existing platforms if you’re looking for a front end UI.” you seem to be telling us you won’t do it.

Ellsweb, we’re not officially associated with the author of this plugin. We’re simply forking it (creating an alternative version of our own) with the intention of submitting a pull request that we hope the author will accept.

Well, I guess I, for one won’t be looking for your fork.
Those of us who are looking for front end functionality will be looking to the developer of this plugin to see if he is interested in providing what we are asking for. At least he hasn’t told us to look for another platform to do what we want.

@s3w47m88.

I find it curious for you to come to another developer’s forum and try to convince us that we do not want nor need what we say we want. We want a WordPress project management plugin with front-end functionality. Whether you appreciate the reasoning behind that is not relevant considering this is not your plugin, and so you should not be here trying to convince us that we do not need what we want. I have been using WordPress for years and have even used the Propel plugin. I am not here trying to change whatever future you have decided for Propel. I have no intentions of further using propel partly because of the arrogance and stubbornness you are now coming to demonstrate on someone else’s plugin who has come up with a plugin that we appreciate better than propel, and which you are now copying. Let the developer of this plugin speak for his plugin and address users of his plugin himself.

Thank you @JMDezins.
I was afraid I was going too far.

I really dislike hijackers.

Bob, I hope my explanations were helpful to you. I sincerely was trying to help but I see how what I’ve said has come off arrogant and stubborn, and maybe offensive to you.

I’m passionate about successful project management and over zealous about this topic.

As a fellow user of this plugin I want my opinions to be considered in it’s development and I thought my explanations would help non-developers understand some possible reasons why the author of this plugin stated he didn’t have an ETA as to when this feature would be introduced.

Again, I’m truly sorry if I frustrated you!

Good luck whichever way you go.

For me, the front end / back end debate is all about the user experience. On the front end, you have a set of pages and features brought together in a theme that guides a user where they need to go, to the information they need and are allowed access to, and keeps them away from any scaffolding as they look round your lovely show house. (Yes, I’m probably mixing my metaphors here.) Sending a user to the admin screens with their different look and feel kinda stops the tour and says “oh, hang on, I haven’t built that bit yet” and walks them out past the building site to go and see the bit they wanted to use. Sure it’s functional to use bits of the admin screen but who ever set out to create an ugly user experience?

@s3w47m88,

I hope you realize now that there are equally (if not more so) passionate and zealous people who want to provide what their customers want. Your explanations may be useful in certain circumstances, but in ours, it might be wise to consider that there is a legitimate reason to provide front end functionality.

Your assertion that the only reason for the admin section is for the things you suggest they are for, is negated by the very name “ADMIN”.

WordPress is an evolving project. It is now used for socializing as well as many other functions. Either adapt with the new and exciting things people can do with WordPress or you will continue to provide products more and more people are getting away from just like the one plugin attributed to you (which is not the plugin you claim to be co-author of).

Basically what you did here was attempt to do exactly what @JMDezigns said you did. First you implied you were more involved than you are with this plugin and then you backtracked and stated that you weren’t exactly associated with the author of this plugin. I do pay attention to what people say, and basically, you were trying to hijack this thread and turn it into something that we might go for when you get around to forking this plugin.

Since you apparently don’t exactly have the relationship with the author you tried to imply, maybe you might consider letting the author speak for himself. He has already created one front end plugin that has similar abilities, just not structured the way this one is.

Trying to “explain” that we would be better off going to a different platform to do what we want to accomplish is not an acceptable approach. But, I guess you might have figured that out by now..

Good luck with your fork. Although, you will notice this one already functions in the back end.

I am a developer as well. Not a plugin developer (not working with code as much as you, maybe) but I develop websites using the next level. That’s putting the bits and pieces people like you write, together and making them work for my customers. Please don’t forget, because we don’t necessarily work with code as much as you, we do develop.

s3w47m88, I didn’t find your arguments to be arrogant or stubborn in nature, I found them to be seemingly myopic, but appreciated nonetheless.

And Tareq has already indicated that what we want may be beyond his pay grade. That’s fine too.

Nevertheless, let me give you one last example:

I can do everything Tareq’s plugin does, in Microsoft Project and gain the added benefit of that programs mathematics, timescale and graphics. But MS Project limits the type of presentation I can make to my client, so in that case, I might choose Timberline or such, a much more sophisticated platform and tool that because it is essentially a relational database with industry specific styling, the presentations are abundant. And there are several similar programs on the market, all premium, all allowing for sharing and manipulation of data in the back end and reporting in the front end. Pretty much exactly what we have asked for here, except for a few glaring problems.

It costs a fortune – it’s a bear to master – it’s not WordPress.

I suspect that most of us on this thread want BaseCamp – integrated into WordPress so we can build our own site around it and apply our own branding and (give or take a Premium plug-in fee) have it for free. That’s understandable – 37 Signals have done a great job of keeping it simple and easy to use (and the ethical question is an interesting one that I’m going to side-step here). Many other PM plug-ins are tagged with BaseCamp because the authors know that is what people are looking for.

The point I’m making is this… BaseCamp is (from memory) ALL front end. Period. If you own a project you get to do more stuff with it than a team member or client but you get to do it with the same interface the user sees and it looks like the rest of the site. It’s a fantastic user experience. That’s what I’m looking for in a PM plug-in.

Hi Tareq I’m confused by the status of the thread it is now [resolved] Front-end. It seemed that you were leaning towards a front end. couldn’t this be done with a short code and just tell us the size of the window.

My search for a plug in to assist a group in facilitating each other to take a possibility and make it alive and real in the world. from my experience in creating possibility and fulfilling on it; you have the fundamental of making it public, having committed listeners, a way to have an organized and motivated group, planing made up of milestones that are real in time and place. When completed move the game along to having the possibility alive in the world. Assigned actions to a milestone that when all are accomplished it fulfill on the milestone, Resources assigned to tasks with descriptions. A way to communicate to the group on tasks and milestones. to communicate on status or mini wins when completing a task and milestone, updates and added tasks. Lastly if you want to win a game you need a score board that easy to look at and get where you are. That show how the game is going a status bar that is green or red to a % or milestone. When you open the game you see the score board. See how you are doing easly in one view.

The use of Buddypress makes it a group support and coaching platform. It would be powerful in the group feature of buddy press. It’s about making public deceleration to the group and the group supporting them in there actions, progress and listening to them as bigger then their circumstance. Similar to this support forum creates a powerful listening of you and adds acknowledgment for your amazing work.

This application what would make a difference for any group that is creating a possibility, making a game for there group, gaining momentum and accomplishing something important to them. non-profits, raising money for a project or person. community projects. church projects, coaching professional, business, financial planers, you name it.

Project management is not sexy motivating or fun. I call them games, games are fun, motivating and who doesn’t want to win a game. You could call it group games.

There you go my 2 cents worth. I wish I was a programmer. i’m sure it’s a big project but it would be a huge addition to buddypress world.