Experimental Theme – Grid

“Frames have gone out of style for many reasons, all having to do with the fact that they make the site less usable. “

I agree with your other points 100%. However this part…
I’m sorry but that’s a completely false statement. There is no one person in charge of dictating what is in style and what isn’t. There are MANY MANY MANY well dessigned sites that use frames.

I feel with the advent of CSS, it allows them to be even more advanced and handled much better. This makes them superior to old-fashioned html ones. If you want to read and practice an article some guy wrote in 1996, then go ahead. It’s now 10 years later. Frames have changed.

It is true; however, that I will be making another theme that gives more space to the viewing area for the post. In part due to some of the points brought up here and in part due to the way moo.fx script works. This initial theme was an experiment and don’t think that I have neglected everyone’s input here.

At the same time I just want to point out that I’m not recognizing personal preference as law. So anyone’s post that claimed something less than scientific I probably am ignoring…at least to a degree.

@joelwash – I guess it isn’t a big deal to have it extend to empty space. I just wanted it more centered. Again my future theme will be different. I’ll work less with absolute positioning.

Glad to see that someone doesn’t see that as a big deal though. I was concerned it may look ugly for someone with a higher resolution.

@moshu – I know, there’s not really any standards for web. That’s the sad thing. I just was excited to see that this javascript worked for IE and FF. I assume it works on all browsers, though this is the reason why I wanted to get people to see the site! It seems a user on Linux had a problem. Though I’m unsure if it’s the javascript or the system it was run on. Regardless, I will be removing the javascript window resize. Now that I’ve had a sufficient amount of feedback and good arguments brought up.

Actually (@joelwalsh) it’s not a frame, it’s a fixed dimension box with overflow styled to auto.

@concepthue re: “there’s not really any standards for web.” Yes there is, but good luck with the theme.

@pcmt – There is SUPPOSED to be. However until Microsoft and everyone else decides to acknowledge it. There “isn’t.” It’s just an idea and a philosophy until then. Really it’s just a paradigm that some choose to follow. Can’t call that a standard until everyone follows it.

“Isn’t?” Ever heard of the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)?

@pcmt – Read my post again. Yes I have heard of it. A link to it can be found at the bottom of my page. My point is in jest….you’ll get it.

As I stated, it’s not a true html frame, but that doesn’t change the fact that from the user’s standpoint, it’s just as bad. True, this means that the page content won’t show up separately from the frame in search results, one of the worst problems with html frames, but it’s still a frame from the point of view of the user.

“I agree with your other points 100%. However this part…
I’m sorry but that’s a completely false statement. There is no one person in charge of dictating what is in style and what isn’t. There are MANY MANY MANY well dessigned sites that use frames.”

By “out of style,” I merely meant that there are obviously far, far fewer sites today that use frames than there were five or six years ago. It’s rare to see a new site that uses frames today, compared with when Netscape first invented them, when they were used everywhere. You can probably still find a new site that uses frames, but they probably have a very good use for them other than asthetics or taste (for instance, the way about.com uses a frame when sending you off-site; it wants to keep its ads on your screen–isn’t that a great use of frames??).

And this departure from frames was based on numerous user studies, as well as in-the-field tests of website conversions, and opinion polls, all of which showed that users hated frames. Just check out Jakob Nielsen’s site ( https://useit.com ) for this information.

I wouldn’t dwell on the point except that frames are so widely regarded as bad web design that it’s upsetting to see a good designer unaware of their problems.

yea I was just at that site before I had read your post.

It is true there are less frames now, but you’re thinking of the big ugly frames. Smaller frames are a VERY common thing.

I think this guy is smart and I’m definately saving this site. HOWEVER, he lacks creative vision. He merely is a scientist. He has a PHD, and before that a degree in science. I have a degree in fine art. BIG difference.

I feel there should be a balance between the two. He’s completely one way, I’m strong on the art side, but not completely “left winged” if you will. On the other hand he IS “right winged” and will probably never know beauty, the same way most people do, in his lifetime.

Again, the real trick is finding a balance. In terms of usability, does my layout work??? THAT’s what I’m after. I’m trying to hunt down bugs and severe problems.

Because I’ll gladly sacrifice a fraction of a second more of your time for something you’ll want to spend more time looking at. Rather than a completely scienced out site for usability with absolute 0 appeal. It may be quick to get the information, but the one thing they fail to factor into their research is how long someone will want to look at something ugly…sooner or later if no one wants to use it….how effective is it??

The look is great – very “mondrian-ish”, and I like that very well.

I detest squashed left sites. Center it, I might go back. Get rid of the inner scrollbar, I’d consider using the theme myself.

[I absolutely refuse to get into the other “standards don’t exist” silliness. As it happens however (and even though I don’t ever use them any more) I personally LOVE frames – they make navigation on a site logical (to me, but then when I’M surfing I’m the only one that counts) and tidy. Unfortunately, I am a MAJOR minority on this one….]

@vkaryl – ah.. a like minded individual ?? I can’t center this sadly because it’s done using absolute positioning. I had a javascript that would center and resize the browser window but that caused a whole bunch of mess and problems. So it is what it is. I am designing a new theme though soon. It will be similar, but different and will address many of the issues talked about here. I may or may not use it personally, but it will be a creation for fun and so that people can use it. Just trying to contribute.

Well, then, you wouldn’t mind if I use the box-design idea myself?

Of course not. Part of the reason I posted this was to inspire. I was just trying to open up ideas and hopefully get some sparks to fly. I’m working on a new design too for public use, but I’m having problems with the css at the moment. I’m just gonna take a break for a day or so from what I’m doing I think.

Beutiful design!

I’ll part with moshu, Podz and others here, that extra scroll bars are annoying and don’t you ever tamper with my window size.
Certainly if you don’t allow me to resize.
I want to be surprised by design and content, not by may browser window dancing mazurka.

I can see you listen to advice, and I really like what I see. If I think the space to the right is to wide, I can reize my window to my liking.

When experimenting with design I’m using my big good window, but now and then I use the Firefox developer bar to resize the browser window to 800 x 600. Some still have them, and I’m always surprised at how small real estate I get. Your design width fits, give or take a few pixels, in that space.

Good work!

yea, the funny thing is i like 800×600 but i noticed not many people use that resolution any longer. 20% or less according to the visitors that go to W3C’s site and about 1% of visitors to my various sites. So I could make it bigger.. i dunno, i’m working on a new theme that will scale