Disturbing Old Trend

The fact is that all of whats been mentioned in this thread is nothing new. Take a look at LINUX support sites, or Windows support sites, vbulletin, phpBB, you name it .. theyre ALL the same. And guess what? As the popularity of any application grows, the “laziness” (not my word) within it’s support area multiplies.

Thats just the way that it goes.

It’s easy to say that a rudimentary knowledge of something ought to be necessary, or at the very least an attempt should be made to gain that rudimentary knowledge — I’m the first to say that it would be nice if people learned what administering something actually takes before installing LINUX on that box in the basement — but guess what, it’s rarely the case.

Deal with it.

I realize, and accept that, everything in this thread is ‘old‘ concerns, especially to the creators, moderators, and loyal, productive members with memberships greater than my own.

But surely we must, as a progressive community, try to rectify the way we administer our Support Forums, so we actually tend relevant WP issues instead of every issue.

As things now stand, we are (for those who regularly help out in the forums) correcting / repairing / fixing / modifying / altering – and in some cases, actually designing – minor to major design & theme repairs/issues more and more each day, without offering our members external resource links in our replies for better promotion of self-learning & education.

I’m not just talking about promoting the Codex files, but other high ranking, detailed websites whose core premise is step-by-step tutorials and articles of this nature.

Every single time we respond to a member’s cry for help on issues that directly relate to: CSS/XHTML and Web Design – when clearly these people have not served themselves by taking the time to actually learn the rudimentary particulars, nor have they attempted to search, or read the Codex files, or even attempt to rectify the problem themselves with good ol’ fashion checking and tweaking – we are, in fact, endorsing and supporting the non-compliance, non-educating behavior of our members.

Let’s face it. If we were to buy a brand new car, which usually involves handing over thousands of dollars, we don’t expect the salesman to teach us how to drive the thing.

That’s not his department.

WordPress is free, yet we offer on-going detail support to issues that are NOT WordPress related.

Can you not agree that our support forum, as it now stands, defeats the purpose of saying: Please read the Codex before you Post?

Why bother directing anyone to read the Codex when our support team answers all CSS/XHTML/ Design questions, anyway?

More the point, can someone please explain to me why anyone would want to read the Codex when all CSS/XHTML/ Web Design help they need is but a few keystrokes away?

Yes, for the overly cynical members, I suppose I could just delete my WordPress username/ password, hang up my CSS/XHTML hat, and leave all this nonsense behind me.

But I often read the extraordinary lengths our moderators go to in a vain attempt to help someone they don’t know, someone they’ve never before met, someone who couldn’t be bothered to read the Codex, someone who couldn’t be bothered to come on board and pick up some of this CSS/XHTML/ Web Design slack, and I think to myself: Yes. I can help.

I should help. After all, knowledge shared is knowledge learned.

Yeah, right.

I suppose I should just deal with it, and move on.

You can move on, or just chose to not answer the posts you find so, shall I say, irritating, for lack of a better word.

Im not attacking you, I am merely suggesting that rebel-rousing “the community” into not answering questions will get you nowhere.

And sometimes, replying to a simple css query is a nice change of pace for some of us…

Yes, it is a lack of a better word, because at no point did I mention the word “irritating” and for you to suggest otherwise, when clearly I have NOT mentioned it, when clearly I have said that I am willing to help, when clearly I was being sarcastic at the very last – and I apologise to you now for it – is, in essence, a form of attack.

And, please, kindly accept the fact that I’m not attacking you, but I am merely suggesting some positive changes to world-weary avenues that evidently disturb – even frustrate – a great many people. It goes without saying that I include myself in “a great many people.”

And, frankly, there’s no ‘rebel-rousing” taking place here, but one person’s opinion on a subject that seems to be escalating every day, and from the input to date, – not just this thread but others – complete agreement across the majority of the board.

If I cannot express my point of view without someone suggesting, even black marking, that I’m “rebel-rousing the community” into “not answering questions, surely you should take your own advice on board, and ignore it.

Or better yet, deal with it ??

And for the record, I suggested that we attempt to provide external educational links in our replies, to facilitate greater learning, and hopefully, eventually, decrease the ever-present support loads.

But again, I’m not attacking you, just responding to your blunt expression.

Laziness?

I think whoami came the closest to what I believe is actually happening. When any software product is first released, it’s users tend to be those who are experienced with that type of software and the environment it runs in, because those are the users who can see its advantages. As it becomes more popular, it pushes further and further into a population that grows less and less experienced. Hey, Johnny down the street uses this stuff, so how hard can it be? right? WordPress advertises itself as easy to use… the famous 5-minute install and whatnot.

I had little experience with blogging or its software when I started with WP, too. But I’ve been around computers and software for 20 years and I know how to find out answers to questions that might pop up. I’m mostly able to solve my own problems with a little research.

But what if my computer experience was limited to a bit of web surfing, a document or two, and printing out a few pictures of the kids? If I’m interested in blogging but don’t want to join Blogger or Livejournal or the like, “easy” software like WP might be attractive. But I might not have a clue how to help myself if I run into trouble.

Where’s the disclaimer on the download page that states that a knowledge of css/html, php, sql and basic web design are assumed? Where’s the suggestion that if you don’t knows these things already, you’d better pay someone to install this “easy” software for you?

Yes there are a lot of people here who ask questions first and do research later. And some of them are rude.

But what really astonishes me is the rudeness of some of the people who answer, especially when the question is being asked by someone who sincerely needs help. All of us at one time were new to this and needed help.

We’re all volunteers here. If you don’t want to help, then why come here?

Uh, before the next reply pops up here, may I suggest taking a deep breath, counting to ten, and remembering why we’re all here? This particular train is starting to go down the wrong track, when it really doesn’t need to (you could say I’m sensing a disturbing old trend…).

wow, take the chip off your shoulder.
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You are the one who said above :

“Why bother directing anyone to read the Codex when our support team answers all CSS/XHTML/ Design questions, anyway?”

I know what that sounds like to me.

And for your information, I couldn’t care less if you attacked me or not. My CSS/WP/xhtml/plugins all work – I dare say I won’t ever need any time out of your “busy life”.

—

Kafkaesqui: im done with the thread — I think I said my .02 worth.

I accept Kafkasequi’s suggestion and will no longer post to this thread – on the proviso that I’m NOT attacked, even under the chillingly polite cover of “I’m not attacking you.”

I’ll now bow out.

Sorry Kafkasequi –

————–
so not to imply otherwise…

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@whooami – I am greatly confused.
I was merely asking why we promote the Codex when the majority don’t seem to read it?

I’m not fully up to speed on your work/plugins or your website, but I never mentioned you or anything remotely to do with your work nor did I suggest your work is below standard.

I don’t believe I mentioned you at all.

I did not specifically attack any one creator of anything.

I endeavored to keep personal comments/insults of any one individual from my input.

I didn’t mention the word irritating or laziness

And because I stand up for myself I suddenly have a chip on my shoulder? You were blackmarking me simply because I expressed a generic pov.

I’m still greatly confused as to why you’re pulling snippets of context from MY input and changing the overall tone to imply terrible, personally directed insults.

I already apologized for being sarcastic – and it was completely genuine and heart-felt.

I don’t even know you – and I’m still confused.

And now I’ll gracefully bow out.

Thanks Kafkasequi

katie1, reading back through this thread, I see from me only 1. a cute remark about css queries (well, I thought it was cute), and 2. a suggestion we cool our heels before the discussion gets out of control.

I believe you’re replying to whooami, who will have to explain any remarks about css/plugins/et al.

I would however like to point out that this brings up a point I was sort of trying to make in my previously last reply, which is, considering the generally non-personal nature of the OP and the topic at hand, we should not be taking this personally.

oooh. No. No. Noooo.

Forgive me Kafkaesqui – I wasn’t talking to you – I didn’t want to use @ and pointedly stiputate any one person.

Forgive me.

This is not directed at you, and yes, you did make a cute remark.

I was merely thanking you for your suggestion and allowing me to respond.

That’s all.

Ah. I’ve at least proved that anyone can misread a forum post… ;)

I agree that it is entirely possible to misread posts.

I also believe that it is entirely possible to incite personal attacks.

Please forgive what might seem like pouring honey on myself in the middle of a bear’s den… I’m 42 years old, 25 years in IT, lots of credentials – just trying to establish that I’m no 15 year old. I also spend a lot of time in browser and usenet forums, helping masses of people, getting helped by as many, going back at least 20 years now – just trying to establish that I know my way around forums and communities – and yes, there was an internet before Al Gore and The Amazing Fishcam.

With this in mind, please don’t take this personally … This is the worst forum medium I’ve ever been in. The people here are obviously helpful and dedicated, no slam on anyone personally, this is part of what attracted me to WP, and I hope to be a contributing part of it. But comparing this to any mainstream forum software, this is just awful, and undoubtedly the source of some of your angst.

Yes, people need to RTFM before coming here. But for those who do (raises hand) finding any information in this forum is almost impossible. There are too many things wrong with it to mention in this tiny textarea, but here is one tiny example: Go to the base /support page and what do you see? A lot of Hot Tags that look like a font demo. Then what? A search box and button. Great, but that doesn’t search the forum, it Yahoo’s the primary domain and codex. With 10 hits and a ton of wasted space on the first page out of (yes) 10’s of thousands of hits, no way to refine it, and none of which actually link to Support, is it any wonder that someone is just going to come back and file a new forum post? And what does one see when posting? Over 900 pages of history for a single sub-forum. While WP is wildly popular especially since MT went $forfee$, 135,000 posts isn’t a sign of “popularity”, it’s a sign of a community that isn’t focusing time properly. I won’t go on, but this is what a newcomer sees here…

I firmly believe that you’d see new postings cut in half if this forum were migrated to another mainstream format with a decent search facility and room to read the text on the screen.

Also, and here’s more honey, sorry: You people use this support forum as a blog. It’s cluttered with so much chit chat, it’s no wonder it’s impossible to find anything.

I’ve said my peace and you are welcome to shoot the messenger. But it would be more productive to address the real issues. I know this is a public site, not corporate, no one paid, etc. But other communities take it upon themselves to fix problems and this group should too.

Umm, nice to meet y’all. ??