Bureaucracy

It’s just that I don’t like it when people say “fork the project” as a cop out to try and end discussions. Just seems like way to often, it’s put up or shut up or fork the project. I can’t code at all, does that make me poison?

I can’t code at all, does that make me poison?

There’s a number of avenues to contribute to WordPress without necessarily being able to code, but if you suggest a change to WordPress, that change will probably have “a better chance of seeing the light-of-day” if you are able to contribute a code patch via trac.

What I, and a lot of developers dream of, is something in between. The usability of WordPress combined with the freedom and modularity of Drupal. It sounds like a long shot when you just come out and say it like that, but I don’t believe it is too far off. I would love to start a discussion with you, or anyone else open to the idea based around that principal.

This would be a really great discussion, as I’m looking for this thing myself. Want to split it off into a different thread?

One of the points you brought up that strikes a chord with me is the lack of a mission statement. In my interview with Automattic employee Paul Kim, I mentioned this and told him that it would be nice if WordPress had a mission statement on the website that let everyone who is involved in the project what they are striving to achieve. Right now, it’s anyone’s guess as to what WordPress is trying to accomplish outside of just being a great publishing platform. A mission statement would provide a point of focus across the entire project instead of the chaos that ensues currently.

This would be great to see as well – and open discussion about the mission of WordPress (and the people who extend, support, and USE it) would be very interesting.

Well, I made the age old mistake of using the textarea rather than an actual document for a formal well written reply. Just finished, posted, and lost… NOOOO.

Anyway, I will try to get it back together at a later time.

This would be a really great discussion, as I’m looking for this thing myself. Want to split it off into a different thread?

Go for it.

jeffr0,

Thanks for the links, and you are not poison ??

Jane,

Wow, sounds like more than one cord was struck there. You are not poison either. I do see how clean the ideas section is as of late, and I do not take you closing ideas personally.

Just know in the end, nothing is taken personally.

I don’t have the experience to manage a project of this size, but does that make me poison? My anger is toward the community, not individuals. It is just hard to make that claim when people then say I am generalizing. I guess the better avenue is just to be quiet and code? Seriously? No thank you, I already have a boss, and he actually pays me to do that. If I really do have to submit a patch before making criticisms such as this, then at least that fact is finally out there in plain sight. One step closer to a development centric mission statement.

Why shouldn’t WordPress put a priority on proven talent, good communication skills, and the ability to set aside personal agendas for the good of the project?

What exactly is, “the good of the project”? (genuine question here)

In the professional world, people don’t walk into a business and get handed the job of prophet, making pronouncements about how to fix things, without proving it will work.

I will say, and won’t be the first, that the professional world is far from the meaning of the word “professional”. It is who you know, how you can take advantage of a situation, and how you can beat the competition. What you just described, is almost exactly what happens, in the professional world. I guess my personal agenda was searching in the hope of finding something different. I admitted I was looking for a fight before, but with roots in genuine frustration. I also apologized if I offended anyone, but it still doesn’t relieve my frustration. Who knows, this is most likely just the overall mentality of New York City under my skin. I am in the midst of a life change, and moving to the West coast holding a dream that people in general might hold a little higher moral standard. Don’t ask me why, but I guess I might have been trying to find it in this community in the mean time. I do have to give a big thank you to Jane here for making me realize this with her comment.

For the record I never mentioned anything about myself in a leadership role. If we don’t like how our government is running this country, does it deny our right to make criticisms toward it without actually running for office?

In my last major post in this thread I was simply asking for simple answers. I didn’t get them, why? Should I just google for answers, as with everyone else? Why can’t simple answers to simple questions be in plain sight? Search “WordPress PHP5” in google, this is the first result, from 2004. Here is the next.

Soon, WordPress will not support PHP 4, transitioning to PHP 5 and future versions. This article is to answer questions about making the move from PHP 4.x to PHP 5.x on your web hosting platform.

Soon,…
Am I asking for too much, really?

People get so religious about the platform, but it’s not like we’re curing world hunger here. It’s code, it’s publishing on the web, and in the grand scheme of things, WordPress is doing more every day to make it easier for people to contribute and get involved. That doesn’t mean it’s perfect, nor is it the right platform for everyone.

Amen ??

Here is my overall suggestion… I will also post this in that thread Jane started that jeffr0 sent my way.

Organize this site into “Publishing” and “Contributing” bubbles. I believe it would solve many of the hurdles in communication. It would make a clear distinction between the platform’s usability issues, and the platform’s development structure. If there was a question where a development mission statement would go, this would answer it. People who use WordPress versus develop for it both have valid contributions to make to the whole of the project. What they don’t have is a coherent place to live in the same forum. It would solve many issues in the organization of current pages and content. It would also allow content to be targeted, and hence more easily found by curious prowlers.

Interactive direction and the development of those functionalities of course have a lot to do with each other. Unfortunately, they should not influence each other in an open medium, otherwise one is always trying to appease the other.

Firstly the “switching to PHP5” article is designed to help people along who might not understand the technicalities of the issues. Do you really think it would be helpful to say “When less then 10% of the existing user base is reported as using PHP4 platforms” instead of “Soon”? Is it not better to be concise and generally accurate than labouriously detailed. Neither statement would give you an actual day, so what consequence is it?

Secondly, I’d say that whilst there may be failings out there in the professional world, one of those failings is (generally) not that people have to prove themselves before they can enact change. In fact, my experience is that people who have gravitated to the top without a proven track record tend to be poor leaders who make dire decisions.

Lastly (from my perspective at least) I think that your point (if you have one) is in danger of being diluted by as this discussion goes on. I’m rapidly losing track of what it is that you’re trying to say. First your arguments seemed to be against “core” as a concept, now it seems to have drifted to the “community” as a whole. It’s an entertaining read for sure but I do wonder where we will end up.

Sorry, just thought I could lighten the mood in this thread a little…
clientsfromhell

mrmist,

From you…

… First your arguments seemed to be against “core” as a concept, now it seems to have drifted to the “community” as a whole. It’s an entertaining read for sure but I do wonder where we will end up.

From me…

… When I visualize the communities of both WordPress and Drupal, each of them take on the organic visual representation of their respective platforms’ design …

They are inherent of each other.

In any case i think it’s great we’ve been able to have a discussion in some form. I’ve been having a re-think of what i know about the community over the last few days, and you know, i don’t really feel i know enough to address your questions(just me personally – i also posted about this thread on wptavern, to draw some attention to the thread).

For the sake of being transparent here’s the link to the thread i started on wptavern, which has become an interesting discussion in itself.
https://www.wptavern.com/forum/general-wordpress/1451-wordpress-bureaucracy.html

t31os_,

Thanks for that link. I particularly like the part about missing “bozos” in the list of sub communities.

It’s funny when people disregard the whole of the thread, and point their fingers at a single post or line, and say something like “…That’s what he’s saying!!…” ??

It’s an age old art of forum debate, and it is used truly as a way to stop or divert criticism, without actually addressing any of it.

So just wanted to say thanks to everyone that actually “got” the things I was talking about, whether you disagreed or not, you still addressed something in your reply with your own points and views on the same subject.

For the people who say they don’t know where the thread is going, I ask why are you asking yourself this question? Is it intriguing? Why? Lets here it…

For those of you who think this is about something other than a genuine criticism of the design of the platform, and as a result of that platform’s design the many breakdowns in communication occurring at many levels (and vice versa); then I am reassuring you that it isn’t. If you ignore this reassurance and point to something I’ve said that may sound less relevant than it should. Then just notice that it was most likely it was a response.

Okay, there’s a lot going on in this thread, but it seems to be providing some germane discussion, so here’s one more bit:

Mrmist said:

Firstly the “switching to PHP5” article is designed to help people along who might not understand the technicalities of the issues. Do you really think it would be helpful to say “When less then 10% of the existing user base is reported as using PHP4 platforms” instead of “Soon”? Is it not better to be concise and generally accurate than labouriously detailed.

Personally, I would like to see “When less than 10% of the existing user base is reported as using PHP4”, with a number next to it that indicates what percentage of the current user base is using PHP4. And maybe a number that says “last year/quarter/month that % was X”. Then I can define what “soon” means in terms of some quantifiable information. And I can work on getting people off those PHP4 installations.

If I remember correctly, the number was around 12% about a few months ago