[Plugin: WP Symposium A Social Network For WordPress] OMG how does paid software make it in here???

I’m sorry you’re not happy with some of the plugins here. If you find a violation of the plugin guidelines for a plugin hosted here, you can report it at plugins AT www.remarpro.com. If you do report a plugin, please be specific with what the violation is exactly.

Not liking what the author is doing is different from violating the guidelines or GPL. I sympathize in that I think some plugins may cross the line between crassness and community sharing but that’s pretty arbitrary and I wouldn’t want my preferences to define what’s hosted here or not.

So I can’t even download the GPL only portion of the software in this repository!

That’s not quite correct. All of the plugins here are GPL’ed and you can download them from here.

Some of the plugin authors do have commercial versions of their GPL’ed plugins behind a paywall but that alone does not make the software incompatible with the GPL or a violation of the guidelines here.

Also hosting a plugin here does not obligate the plugin author to provide free of charge GPL’ed versions with more features then the version here.

https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney

To the best of my knowledge, the GPL and WP policies do not allow for trial, payment-required software so what are you talking about?

I am stating my opinion when I say that what I don’t like is having the virtually the entire entry devoted to selling software and how does that serve the community and why is WordPress supporting that by allowing it? Do you see how much this guy wrote about his software and how much of it functions as useable documentation and how much of it functions as “buy my software”? I mean it’s certainly up for interpretation, but you’d be hard pressed to convince me that the content is so overwhelmingly sales based that it wastes the resources of the repository and violates the spirit of our community.

Let me try to clarify that there are not 2 versions of this software, and this version is not a GPL version with another, different, commercial version behind a paywall. This is not a version of the software whereby you can purchase and install additional code to add or unlock premium features. There is one version of this software, it is commercial software and it’s located right here in the WP repository. It is not even a version containing 2 folders where the second folder is an optionally installable free trial of the additional modules requiring payment for it to fully function without limitation. This software is a commercial trial version and it is <b>only a commercial trial version.</b> There is one version of this software, it requires payment fo fully function, and that is the version you have here in the WordPress repository, and that is the software I am reporting as having a problem.

If the commercial portions of the code are in a folder that I can simply exclude from my installation then I would think that it allows me to download and utilize the GPL portion of the software, but that does not seem to be the case, and I’m not sure that WordPress allows people to upload their trial software here, so really, is this what you are saying, that I’m wrong and trial software can be made available here? If that would actually allow the developer to be compliant with repository rules, then it needs to be documented clearly and succinctly in the installation tab. But if you are saying that trial commercial software can indeed be made available here, then I’ll modify my complaint to say that not having trial software labeled clearly is a problem that is easily addressed and I’m unsure why users should have to be subjected to this omission of clear product labeling, whether it be made clear by the developer or it be made clear by a checkbox that WP provides to display that data to me when viewing the listing. And when the developer creates 2 items for purchase – 1 for software and 1 for service – it’s obvious he doesn’t really understand the license.

I’ve brought this up before and I’ve yet to have it explained to me that I completely misunderstand the license, related laws, rules or guidelines. The code contained in the submission here is the one and only version: a commercial trial version. It contains code requiring monetary payment, it contains code that dials home (presumably repeatedly) and contains code that does not function correctly as is, without said monetary payment. And my understanding is that if nothing else, code dialing home is not GPL, but I am really not sure about that and don’t want to turn this into a debate about software dialing home. (My opinion that it burns my potato should be obvious, but if it isn’t…)

You’re certainly welcome to your opinion, but please label your opinions as opinions so I can understand where I could be/am wrong, and where we simply disagree. Please respect the fact that my time is valuable and repeatedly having noncompliant software filling up the search results, and spending time dissecting these hybrid product entries is, in my opinion, not in the spirit of the WordPress project and disrespects the millions of volunteer hours that the community devotes to WordPress.

I accidentally hit submit post too soon before I had edited my entry and if that caused you to receive a draft copy of this post, please accept my apology for my error and what would have shown bad manners on my part. I sincerely appreciate your response, but I don’t think we disagree on principles and I am hoping that my explaining that there is a single version of this software, and it is located here, will help clarify my complaint.

Rob

I accidentally hit submit post too soon before I had edited my entry and if that caused you to receive a draft copy of this post, please accept my apology for my error and what would have shown bad manners on my part.

Don’t think twice about it, I’m not bothered by it and as a volunteer moderator I have to have thick skin or I’ll get my back door pass revoked. ??

You do like to write a lot. That’s cool, you feel strongly about this topic.

To the best of my knowledge, the GPL and WP policies do not allow for trial, payment-required software so what are you talking about?

I’m sorry but that’s not correct. You’re attempting to apply the GPL in ways that it does not actually apply. It may violate the guidelines here but can you demonstrate where that happens?

That code you’ve downloaded from here, are there any restrictions on it? Is it obfuscated or encrypted? Or is is that you just don’t like what they’re doing?

I’ve not checked myself and be aware that I’m just asking you. If you can find in the code a problem please report it. If you just dislike the authors presentation then please find where they violate the published guidelines.

That FAQ is a bit dated and wordy but it’s pretty good.

https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html

The GPL covers the unfettered distribution of the GPL’ed software. It’s about the code being shared and not what the code does not do or have advertisements for other GPL’ed code.

Obviously obfuscated code isn’t sharing but if I GPL my code that does “A” while informing you (in that same code) of other code behind a paywall that does “A+, B, C, etc.” that is all still GPL’ed as long as the other code is not restricted as well.

Example: I download GPL code and massively modify it. It’s Cool! It’s Wonderful! It’s sliced bread! And unless I am distributing it, I do not have to share it with anyone else. I can use it myself to my heart’s content.

But if I distribute the software either for free such as in a public repo or behind a paywall and I am not putting any restrictions on the use or further distribution of the software after you get it, then I am 100% GPL compatible.

People can put “lite” versions here in the repo with the condition that A) the source is not restricted and B) the software actually works and does not do inane things like shutdown after a while or only work if you don’t modify it.

That would be a restriction that’s not GPL compatible. Those plugins do get punted when found.

That all being said: I am not on the plugin reviewer team (that is such a good thing too, it’s a LOT of work and I don’t have the programming chops to pull that off) BUT there have been submissions that get denied because they cross the line.

Submitting a plugin that does Very Bad Things? will get removed. It’s happened. I don’t know if that plugin is in violation or not but as I’ve said above you can submit a compliant with details and it will get looked at.

You’re certainly welcome to your opinion, but please label your opinions as opinions so I can understand where I could be/am wrong, and where we simply disagree.

Agreed, but recognize this as well: you are sharing your opinions too. As I’ve said above if you have details then please share them. That’s not a confrontational statement on my part (and I think you get that too) but it’s important to have details to address these issues.

I sincerely appreciate your response, but I don’t think we disagree on principles

I absolutely feel the same way and think we are on the same page. We may just be reading the text a little differently that’s all. ??

Hi – as the developer of WP Symposium I wanted to comment on a few of the comments made. I don’t want to cover the GPL issue as Jan has done so (thank you Jan for your time in responding here).

First, to be clear:

• The “they” referred to is me (just me, not a company)
• Absolutely no profit is made from WP Symposium (WPS) – all payments received are used to contribute to (but not cover) the hosting, helpdesk costs, software licences, bandwidth, etc
• Since the start, I’ve “worked” on WPS (developing and supporting) about 3000+ hours whilst receiving no payment for it. I’m happy to as I love WordPress, the users of WPS and developing the software. I don’t actually cover what it costs me, so the thought of being paid to develop and support WPS is simply not in the equation.
• I’m accused of “pressing sales” and “upselling” (etc) many times. I would happily trust users on the WPS site to testify and would be personally very surprised if even one person felt I’d ever tried to sell anything to them. I develop WPS because I love doing so, and enjoy supporting it, but it’s not commercial – in fact if it was it wouldn’t be viable. It’s the sheer enjoyment of doing it, and seeing websites using it, that keeps it alive for me.

To address a few points…..

So I can’t even download the GPL only portion of the software in this repository!

Because the “Bronze” plugins are separate, you can easily deactivate (and delete if you wish) those that are not free. They simply allow those who are interested to see them, try them out, without the need for additional downloads. This was requested by users, not a decision I made myself, and I received positive feedback for doing so.

Bronze status for $39 a year for a 3 site license that has to communicate with their server to activate… and the software is included in your download, but you can’t use it until you pay the $39.

.

Yep, you can use it. The software does not communicate with a server to activate, it is entered manually. And you can use it no problem, fully featured. Users of WPS asked it to be included so that they could upgrade everything in one go. New users have welcomed the ability to try everything on their server to check for compatibility before having to decide if they want to pay for the extra plugins. It has proven a great success (based on what users have told me). $13 a year for a website social network (if you use it for 3 as an example), I have been told is good value when compared to the cost of having such a plugin developed for you. If this is expensive I am always interested to hear feedback.

And that isn’t a support charge at all because that’s a separate package they offer (Silver! $59) and it specifically says the user will not receive support for their $39 fee.

The forum (free) is available for support (free), and I will spend several hours a day (unpaid) on the site and help wherever I can. Should you want a guaranteed response, again with a no questions asked refund if I can’t help, then there is the option to pay for this additional level of support via a helpdesk.

It seems likely but not sure that their software is going to regularly dial home to confirm a legal license. How is that GPL?

This never happens.

Gold is probably an upsell you’ll get when you move over to the forum and they’ve successfully converted you as a paid customer.

Not sure where this was found, but nope, this is not the case (there is no gold level…). I develop as a hobby, I’m not into “upselling” and will gladly pay any subscription back to a user if they are not happy. I’m not in this for the profit, purely to try and provide a plugin that people may find useful – and I won’t get upset if they don’t, and certainly won’t try and keep any money paid for “commercial” reasons.

But there’s a FAQ that has a lot of content in it but says “You can activate a member profile page with activity wall and posts/replies; member profile photos (avatars); friends; a “notification bar” with friends status, mail alerts and live chat windows. You can also activate a forum; a directory of members and internal (private) messaging.” Because they never really explain anything but use simple buzzwords, it’s not clear on how much of that is really added functionality – although obviously some of it is. When they say “activate a forum”, how much you want a bet the free version allows for ONE forum.

All of what you have listed is available for free, nothing to pay, zip, all yours forever, with free updates, and free help on the WPS forum if you get stuck, for free, 100%. I feel that it’s not bad value for money… None of the freely provided plugins that cover everything in the above paragraph are limited, you can have, for example, as many forums as you like.

What do any one of the free features not have that can be found in the oh-so-deluxe Bronze status unlocks in all its glory?

Nothing – the free plugins are free, simple as that. You don’t “extend” the free plugins by paying something, they are there to use for free. Will always be.

The point is really that the entire entry for this software in the repository is used to upgrade the user to buy the paid version of the software that doesn’t appear to be GPL if you did buy it..

Nope, seriously – the extra plugins are there for you to try on your server for free, to avoid any future hassle, that’s the only reason. I was trying to help, based on the feedback from users that this would be a good idea. No-one has (until now) said this was a bad idea.

It sounds like it’s all connected and that’s why it’s forced on you with the “free” version of the software.

Nope – it’s not connected. You can pick which of the plugins you use, and which you don’t. It won’t complain or matter what choices you make.

So it’s a choice – all the free plugins (profile, forum, directory, chat, etc) are available to use. Should you wish to use some Bronze plugins, then a small contribution is asked for to cover hosting, bandwidth, support costs, licence costs, etc, etc. But the choice is yours. I would love to be able to provide everything for free for everything, but most evenings and weekends are spent on developing and support WPS, and so I think it’s reasonable to try and cover at least what I have to personally spend to provide it. That’s the only reason any money is asked for. If I win the lottery I promise to stop asking, but until then WPS is costing me personally, and I try and at least cover those costs. I hope that’s not asking too much.

There are so many gratuitous and superflous entries in this software’s docs here that offer no useful information but serve only to convert prospects into paying customers and do a complete and thorough sales job on people….

I’m a personal developer and would never do a “complete and thorough sales job” on anyone. I’m open and transparent in that some of it is free, and to try and cover my personal costs in providing WPS, some I ask a contribution.

And they ask people to not to post support questions here, undoubtedly so they can press the sales job over on their site.

Not at all, it’s extremely upsetting to feel that this is what is thought. Simply because, I try and reduce the places I have to go to provide support, no other reason. Support takes hours every day, I don’t mind, and all I ask is that it’s in one place. It also provides a real-life demonstration of the plugin. I would love to be able to pay for staff to support via here, twitter, facebook, helpdesk, forum, etc, etc but there are only so many hours in the day. So all I ask is that support requests are in one place. It also ensures that any answers are there for future reference. I do not “press the sales job” as I would expect any user of WPS to testify.

Finally, a plea on behalf of those who develop plugins (and themes)…

I know many plugin developers who provide plugins for free or low cost because they love to do it, and I also know that many have stopped supporting and developing them for one reason alone – the abuse and expectations they receive from users.

It’s a real shame, but it’s a fact that many users expect the plugins to get developed and supported totally for free. There is an alternative (and this is not a flippent comment) – pay a developer to create a plugin for your needs, but expect a bill of thousands of $/￡. Otherwise, on behalf of all WordPress developers, please, please keep your expectations equal to the amount of cash you are being asked to hand over?

Otherwise, you will see personal developers such as myself decide that it’s simply not worth the “hassle” and insults we receive, and simply not bother to develop and support them any more. To be honest, have read the above this evening, it makes me think just that. You comments are upsetting on a personal level, and it really isn’t worth it.

You know what? You’re an example of exactly what is becoming a very common criticism of the WordPress community. The repository does not exist for developers, it exists for endusers.

You really took out all that time to dissect my arguments and completely could not or would not see that it was because of your sales job and glossing over details like how one would omit bronze features that my post was made in the first place. Instead, you appear to me to be deliberately hazy on the difference between things like groups and forums. I know how other software differentiates these things and so I also know they could be the same or different.

In your listing, you never mention how the bronze features can be declined or simply omitted. You would not have received any post from me at all if that was made clear.

Based on your listing, am I wrong I perceive that I would have to install the software to figure out if I can use the software without the paid features activated, and only then could I turn off bronze features to confirm any functionality of the software?

You were not unreasonable in assuming that I had an issue with your fees or charges or structure, but you would be mistaken. What I expect, and what I think the rules provide for, is for you to post your software here so that it can be used without limitation, as is. If it had tons of missing features that I could then add to the software via purchased upgrades, then there’d be nothing to complain about.

Instead, you think the repository is here for you to use as a download tool for software that is not functional without payment and I am most sure that WordPress did not offer you that free service. I may be wrong. I may also be wrong that you are not permitted to include an additional bundle of proprietary software in your WordPress repository entry, but I’m pretty sure I’m not.

I was being sarcastic about the Gold level. You can take this as personally as you want, but your entry in the system prevents other entries from taking their place in search results, and you’re wasting my time with all the information you insist on putting in the entry, you do not delineate what’s in and what’s out.

You don’t even realize in your response that you never explained how the bronze part of the software could be excluded, and that your response is the first time it was ever explained that it could be done at all.

I am absolutely guilty of not donating enough $ to developers whose products I use but I absolutely appreciate being able to come here and vet any product, even a barebones one, to see how it works with my current installation. But I’ve spent thousands of dollars on WordPress software and donations in the past 5 years.

The crux of the problem is that your product was an automatic research project from the get go. I’m not interested in evaluating your paid software and then having to downscale it, and I don’t think I’m unreasonable in this expectation for software stored in the WordPress repository. And by you making your product a research project unless I pay $39 (because then I don’t have to figure out what works and what doesn’t and how, right? Just easier, right?) is something I resent, and I offer that resentment on behalf of every enduser like myself.

But I’m a developer and an enduser, so I see both sides of the coin. I know you never break even on these things. It’s not a reason that WordPress owes you free dropbox space for the paid module of your app – although again I would not have complained if you put those files in a separate folder and were specific in your entry about how to use them or not. I might have acknowledged it was not right but it wouldn’t have stopped me from trying the software or even making the purchase from you, and I certainly wouldn’t have taken out the time to make the complaint.

I’m still unclear if based on what you’ve said if there are files I can delete if I am not using bronze features, or if you’re saying I would turn those features off, or if you’re saying I simply don’t activate those features. But you haven’t said that a certain set of files would not be installed or would be deleted in the event that one is not using the bronze features.

Let’s also quit with the sales job and trying to make this all seem right and fair and of benefit to your endusers, let’s be clear that even with what you’ve said, including the bronze files in the download benefits you far more than the tens of thousands of users who asked to have their bronze files included in their WordPress repository download – you don’t even have to provide space or bandwidth for updating the software you sell, right? Right? Regardless of whether or not anyone asked, how is it just not obvious to you that including them is downright shady?

To create some good karma on both sides, I’ll offer to host your download in my Amazon S3 cloud at no charge to you, up to 200mb. That should give you enough space for 40 versions of your plugin. It costs me 3 cents a month. On me. For at least 5 years. No credit, tagline, charge or otherwise.

Just do the right thing it always comes back to you bigger and better.

In case you read the first version of the previous post, I edited it, and with the edits, I doubled my offer of free space.

Rob, you need an editor to help you with your posts, I think. Less is more.

The reality is WordPress Symposium IS free to install and use on your server. For more advanced functions, however, you can choose to unlock additional plugins fully. There is no “phoning home” going on with the software.

What’s the problem here?

No, it’s not. The software you download contains extra components that are crippled unless you pay for them.

Are we really going to debate “fully functional”? If there are functions included in this download that are not usable without paying for it, then it’s not fully functional.

Software requiring an activation code good for 3 activations would have to phone home, would it not? Or 3 activation codes good for 1 activation each? How would this be avoided?

Sorry Rob, I need to correct you:

The software you download contains extra components that are crippled unless you pay for them.

Incorrect Rob, nothing is “crippled”, all plugins provided function in their entirety.

If there are functions included in this download that are not usable without paying for it, then it’s not fully functional.

Incorrect again here Rob, all “functions” are usable without “paying for it”.

Software requiring an activation code good for 3 activations would have to phone home, would it not? Or 3 activation codes good for 1 activation each? How would this be avoided?

Sorry Rob, but incorrect again. I request and trust users (it’s a two way street after all) not to use the activation code on more than 3 sites as I think that’s fair for $39. There is no “phone home”. If users choose to ignore my request and install it on more than 3 sites, then that’s their choice.

Thank you for your suggestion regarding the clarity of the plugin description. I will use simpler language to further explain the position for those who don’t understand the FAQ as it stands. I’ll update in the next release.

As a P.S., remember without developers (usually working for free, providing support for free, and I suspect more often than not, at cost to them personally) there would be no plugin or theme repository, and WordPress wouldn’t flourish (as it deserves to). #justsaying

I ended up here as i wanted to check for updates to the plugin. I think this “robthecomputerguy” must be a spammer of some sort or have some sort of hidden agenda. He certainly seems to be way off base in his critique, and my own critique is he likes the sound of his own voice. But either way he seems to have no idea whatsoever as to what he is talking about.

I use symposium on a couple of sites. Its forum software with some social networking features, and darn good at what it does. Like many thousands of plugins, there is an professional upgrade available. Whats the issue with this? I have none whatsoever.

Now the developer Simon, is extremely good at what he does in my opinion, and in the more recent versions, I see he has built in some additional features that get downloaded in the package, and become active (this may have changed as in my experience the developer constantly updates the plugin as new ideas and features roll out) if one decided to pay for them, whereas one used to download these separately. But they are ancillary features, not core features. And kudos to a developer who actually knows how to code this type of functionality properly, and does not make us go back and forth to retrieve the extra features.

We have an expression for this – “Expert Developer”!

I think this is much ado about less then nothing. Were I a mod, this whole thread would already be dust. Now if we could only take to task all the amateurs who roll out a plugin and then after one update of wp, the kiss of death has occurred. They make up 90% of the repository, and just make everyone’s life difficult. If only they were all as good as this symposium guy, my life would be a lot easier.

Time to get the latest update!

Oh, so this paragraph:

And there are “Bronze” plugins for even more functionality – like Groups, Events, Facebook Shared Status, Photo Albums and Mobile Access. These are included in the package installation so you can try them on your site (a small banner is shown while you are trying out the Bronze plugins which is removed with an Activation Code if you subscribe to the Bronze subscription at https://www.wpsymposium.com/membership).

Doesn’t qualify as “payment required for full functionality”?

Until I see a screenshot of that reduced functionality, I’m taking the developer’s word that it’s reduced functionality that interferes with the goal of “fully functioning.”

If the plugins are optional, where’s the plugin folder? I see folders for ajax, css, images, js, jwplayer, library, mobile-files, tutorials, tiny_mce and uploadify and a plugin folder within tiny_mce, but nothing that appears to be a plugin folder for the plugin generally.

Since you all want to debate it so absurdly, now I’ll install this just to see how one goes about declining bronze features and not including those files in their installation to understand what it is you all think is so appropriate.

EIGHTEEN PLUGINS?????????????????????????????????

Why didn’t you just say “eighteen plugins”. You know BuddyPress is one plugin, right? “A number of plugins” doesn’t connote this. I wouldn’t expect there to be multiple entries in the plugin list unless you explained that.

Now I read all of that completely differently. And poof there is a delete button with each plugin’s entries. Done. Easy peasy.

I wouldn’t begin to think to object – not even to grumble or murmur!! – to the way you have packaged it.

Really, none of you picked up that my objection to a single plugin had any validity based on the idea that if I had not installed it I wouldn’t know it was a package of EIGHTEEN plugins???

Maxcom, I sincerely apologize, I was outraged at your apparent disrespect of sorts for the repository when you have clearly gone far far far overboard to structure it so fantastically like I have never seen someone go to the trouble. I hope that what I have shared helps make it clearer to other users and can thus remove any barriers to use.

(And noted about dialing home, that’s a difficult one and I presumed the worst on that because I presumed the worst on the other.)

The ‘two steps’ thing probably confused me into not even entertaining the idea that it could be distinctly separate plugins. Again, my apologies, I feel terrible about this.

Okay, I’ve read through the entire latest round of exchanges and to put it mildly this is not going anywhere and is getting unpleasant.

I’m partially to blame for this, opinion based conversations often do not end well. If anyone has a support question please raise a new topic. I am closing this one down.

@robthecomputerguy, I get where you are coming from and I do respect your opinion. Let’s just conclude it at there alright? But please do not open new topics like this again. I’m sorry but they will be closed, this was not a productive exchange.

If you have details of a violation of the plugin guidelines, please follow the instructions above on how to report it.

@simon.goodchild Please do not let threads like this topic discourage you. If you enjoy producing plugins then please continue to do so. This is one person’s opinion and I hope you do not let it bother you.